Chapter One (continued)
Deborah the Atheist Criticises Some of the Most Respected and Loved Parts of the Bible, and Judith the Christian Defends Them

Deborah Criticises Jesus for Commanding People to Forgive Others, and Judith Defends What he Said

Then Judith looked at the time, and asked, "Were there any more questions you wanted to ask me, Deborah?"

Deborah grinned and said, "Oh yes, loads and loads! ... Well OK, at least some. Firstly, some of what you said about the Sermon on the Mount sounds nice. But there are still one or two things about it and Jesus' other teaching that don't seem quite right to me. What about his insistence that his followers forgive people, saying they won't be forgiven by God themselves if they don't?"

She smiled as she said, "Of course, if people really could cast spells, people would probably have a whole lot more to forgive than some people already have!"

Then she said, "Seriously though, I don't think what Jesus said about people not getting to heaven if they don't forgive others sounds fair, since some people do things that are very hard to forgive!

"And doesn't that give people who've never suffered much an unfair advantage, since they won't have much to forgive, so forgiving will be easier? Compare, for example, someone who's got good parents and has had an easy life with someone who was abused for years by their parents, bullied at school and betrayed by people they had relationships with, or who suffered terrible injuries in war, and things like that. It seems that people who suffer most on earth have got more chance of going to hell when they die, just because they have to forgive nastier things and might not manage it!

"And why does God put pressure on Christians to forgive people who God himself doesn't forgive, which you can tell because he sends them to hell? How is it fair to expect humans to be able to forgive people God won't even forgive? Why does he think it's going to be possible for people to forgive really nasty things, when he himself often won't do it, and he wasn't even the one affected by them?

"But as well as that, why is hell all about punishment instead of rehabilitation? Is God like an old right wing MP, thinking the solution to sin is just to 'lock 'em up and throw away the key', except for sinners who change their ways and start believing in him on earth? A lot of humans are more progressive than that, trying to get people rehabilitated in prisons, so they'll give up crime. After all, a lot of people might have been completely different kinds of people if they'd had very different upbringings, like better education that gave them more chance of succeeding in life doing a job they liked doing, and more loving parents, who encouraged them to spend their lives doing good things. And some of the ones still alive might still change if they're given hope that they can succeed at life doing law-abiding jobs they might actually quite like doing, if they're educated enough in prison so they can do them, and if they're given opportunities to do better things with their lives from then on. So why are there no rehabilitation efforts in hell?

"Maybe some people are doomed to go to hell right from the start, because they're born into criminal families who get them into crime. Is it really fair of God to doom people to hell because of the circumstances he allows them to be born in, when they could have been different people in better circumstances? It doesn't seem fair to me.

"But getting back to people being commanded to forgive others, I think another problem with that idea is that forgiving too easily puts people at risk of being doormats who can be taken advantage of. I mean, obviously it's good and more mentally healthy not to go around bearing grudges against people. But it seems to me that forgiving everyone would benefit abusers way more than it benefits victims, and I reckon it could actually mean victims get victimised more, because abusers can manipulate them into forgiving them instead of trying to get them put in prison where they belong, or refusing to have anything to do with them any more, by saying forgiveness is the Christian thing to do.

"I was on an Internet forum where this abusive man spewed out all kinds of horrible insults against this other person who didn't deserve them, - or at least not all of them, - probably doing it just for kicks, after they'd been playful with each other originally; and then he apologised and asked her for forgiveness. When she was angry with him, he mocked her, saying forgiveness would be the Christian thing to do, and that she couldn't be a proper Christian if she wouldn't forgive him. She told him she reckoned he was only apologising because he thought it would get him what he wanted, which was to make her want to be playful with him again. I reckon that was true. She said she thought he probably thought apologising was just like putting money in a vending machine to get what you want out of it. You know - apologise in the top end, and forgiveness immediately comes out the bottom end, and then you get what you want, and can carry on behaving the way you did before, or you can go back to the way things used to be, with no consequences for the abusive way you were.

"I wouldn't be surprised if some people who commit domestic violence manipulate their wives like that, saying they should forgive them if they're true Christians, so they can get away with what they do, thinking they'll always be forgiven as long as they can convince their wives it's the Christian thing to do. And maybe even some Christian church ministers tell some wives that forgiving their husbands is the Christian thing to do, so they feel as if they ought to stay with their abusive husbands, and they end up getting abused some more! I actually read on an Internet forum that some wives who've suffered domestic violence have gone to their church pastors for help, and they've been told they should be willing to forgive, and to submit to their husbands better, to stop it happening!"

Judith said, "Well that's bad. I don't think people should stay in abusive relationships. But forgiveness doesn't have to mean letting people get away with things. You can forgive someone, but because you know they're a danger to society, you can still do your best to get them put in prison for your protection and for the protection of other people. I mean, for one thing, a lot of people who commit domestic violence probably do abusive things to other people too, so trying to get them put away will be doing society a favour. Or you can make up your mind to stay away from them for the rest of your life, saying you'll do your best to forgive them, but that you won't want to ever be with them again, because you know full well you'd be at risk of being hurt again if you ever spent any more time with them.

"As for rehabilitation in hell, I don't think anyone knows all the details of what's really going to happen there; but there might be a lot of people who just aren't interested in being rehabilitated, because they like the way they are and wouldn't want to change, and would think of rehabilitation efforts as just a way to play the system and take advantage of God's goodwill, in the same way you were saying the man on the forum tried to get someone to forgive him just to get what he wanted.

"And I know some people are born into much worse circumstances than others; but I don't suppose you'd disagree that adults still have to take responsibility for their actions, and have the thinking powers to work out how to change if they want to. But there's probably a lot about this stuff that I don't know.

"But as for people who've suffered the most in life being given an unfair disadvantage when it comes to going to hell, I don't know, but I think it's possible that God will take how much people have suffered into account on Judgment Day, and judge partly by how easy or hard it was likely to have been for each one to forgive the specific people in their lives, or how fair it would have been to forgive them.

"After all, Jesus told a parable to illustrate that refusal to forgive can sometimes be unfair, about a king who was owed a huge amount by one of his servants, and at first he said he was going to sell him and his wife and children into slavery and sell all his things as well to recoup the debt; but the man pleaded for him to be merciful and patient, saying he'd pay in the end; and the king felt moved by that, and said he'd forgive the whole debt. But then the man went away and met a fellow servant who owed him an amount that was way way way smaller, and he assaulted him and ordered him to pay, having him put in prison till he did, even though the fellow servant pleaded to be allowed time to pay. The king was told about it, and he was angry, and he called the man back in, and said he should have forgiven the other servant's debt in the same way he'd forgiven his, and that since he hadn't, he wouldn't forgive him his own debt after all because of that, and he was going to send him to prison to be tortured till he paid.

"Jesus said God will do the same to people who refuse to forgive other people, when God's willing to forgive them a much bigger amount. But it seems to me that there's a big difference between people who are struggling to forgive things they're finding hard to forgive, but who'd like to just move on with their lives, and people who, say, take every opportunity to try to get back at someone who's done them wrong, and like to fantasise about ways of getting revenge; and I can't be sure, but I would imagine that the judgment people are judged with on Judgment Day will be sophisticated enough that it can make a distinction between the two, so the person obsessed with revenge gets punished more harshly than the other one."

Deborah said, "Well you can always hope. But I still don't think forgiveness is always a good idea, especially when it comes to forgiving abusers. I reckon being angry with people can be protective, if it motivates some people not to have anything to do with their abuser any more. If you try to forgive abusers so you try to get rid of all your grudges against them, it's going to be easier for them to manipulate you into being with them some more, where they can abuse you again, because you haven't got the anger making you not want to have anything else to do with them."

Judith said, "I'm really not sure it works like that, because I think anger can sometimes melt away in a moment. I reckon it's probably possible to be ragingly angry with someone one minute, but then they say some things to you that tug on your heartstrings, and do something that makes you think they really care about you, and your anger's gone. I mean, it must work like that a lot of the time, because I've heard that men who commit domestic violence often manage to manipulate their wives into not pressing charges against them, by crying and saying they're really sorry and that they'll do their best to change, not long after they've abused them, even in the time before the police arrive if they've been called."

Deborah said, "Maybe you're right. But another problem with forgiveness is that imagine if someone did something abusive to you and later they asked for forgiveness: Even if you thought they were showing some remorse, wouldn't it feel to you as if forgiving them just like that would be like giving them the impression that what they'd done couldn't have been that bad after all since it could so easily be forgiven, so they might think it couldn't have hurt you that much, so they might think they wouldn't be doing that much harm by doing it again? What if some people who are forgiven do feel like that?"

Judith replied, "I suppose some people might worry about that. But they could still tell the person who did the harm that it wasn't easy to forgive them, and bring home to them the impact of what they did on them."

Deborah said, "I suppose so. But why should people forgive other people for things they don't deserve to be forgiven for, like if they don't even seem sorry for what they did?"

Judith said, "Well I know it might sound fairer not to. But you're right about how it's mentally healthier to forgive people, since feeling resentment and anger and upset over what people have done for ages can deprive people of sleep and a decent quality of life, and even cause physical problems like high blood pressure because of all the stress, especially if they lie awake at night brooding over what happened, or they find it hard to concentrate on things sometimes because it's on their minds so much. And all the anger inside some people can sometimes come out in their attitudes to other people, if they take it out on them. Or it can often simmer inside them, ruining their own quality of life, so they're the ones being hurt by it, not the person who harmed them.

"One thing that can sometimes help people to forgive is if they try to find out what turned the people who've harmed them into the kinds of people they came to be, so they might be able to develop more understanding of why they behaved the way they did, so as to think of them a bit more as a product of their circumstances, so they seem less like just an evil person that was just being nasty or something.

"I know it can be really hard for people to forgive horrible things. But actually, in Jesus' time, I think forgiveness was seen as more an act of the will than an emotional thing, being about giving up the desire to bear grudges, or to wish or do people harm.

"And people can ask God for help. I once heard a Christian woman say she found it really hard to forgive her father. I can't remember for what now. I think it was something to do with abandonment. But she said when she realised the Bible says Christians should forgive others, for the first year after that, she prayed to God to make her willing to be made willing to forgive her father. Then the second year, she did feel willing to be made willing to forgive him, and prayed that God would make her willing to forgive him. Then the third year, she did feel willing to forgive him, and prayed that God would help her forgive him. Then after a while, she did forgive him."

Deborah said, "OK, maybe there's some good that can come out of it then. But another thing is that I think Christians can sometimes use forgiveness in harmful ways, like to make themselves seem superior to others. A Christian I know said she went on this Christian holiday, and when she got back, she got a letter from a woman who was there with her, that claimed she'd annoyed her in quite a few different ways, which she explained in detail in the letter, but she said she was writing to tell her she forgave her. She hadn't said anything to her about how she felt on the holiday. The woman who got the letter said she didn't understand why the other woman had thought sending the letter would be the Christian thing to do, since she didn't think it was helpful at all.

"It sounded as if the woman who sent it was being passive-aggressive to me, just using granting forgiveness as an excuse to write this letter complaining to this woman about all the ways she said she'd annoyed her. I don't know how she'd annoyed her; she seems like a really nice person to me.

"Maybe the other woman could really do with asking forgiveness for her passive-aggressiveness! You know, passive-aggressiveness is where a person hides hostility in things they say or do where they're pretending to be nice, like if someone asks them to baby-sit while they go out to a party, and they say, 'Yes, that'll be fine; go and have a good time and don't worry about me', but the person who asked them can tell from their tone of voice that they're resenting the fact that they think they're expected to sacrifice themselves to do it and that they weren't invited to the party; or someone might say, 'Don't worry about washing the dishes; carry on watching TV; I'll do them', but they don't sound happy, and then they slam cupboards and sound as if they're bashing the washing up around, so you can be pretty sure they're not happy, and probably resenting you for taking their offer at face value and letting them do it, without saving them from the task by saying you'll do it instead."

Judith said, "It must be annoying when that happens. But it's not real forgiveness if someone's just telling someone they forgive them to spite them, or to make themselves look better than them. And the Bible does say God judges people's motives, not outward appearances."

Tracy Turns the Conversation Humorous, by Telling the Others About a Game of Insults on a Forum

Tracy smiled and said, "I know about passive-aggressiveness. Actually, I think someone once thought I was being passive-aggressive when I wasn't! I heard that one of the subtle ways people can show others they're impatient for them to get on with something is if they clink their keys together, or tap on the table or something, to show they're distracted, and not really interested in what the other person's saying. I was talking to an old neighbour once, and I was interested in what she was saying, but I started fiddling with my keys in my pocket absent-mindedly, and I think she must have thought that was a hint that I was getting bored, because when I started doing that, she said she'd go, and said goodbye. I thought that was a pity.

"Another thing is that I post on an Internet forum where someone started a thread in the humour section, telling people to passively-aggressively insult the person who'd posted just before them. So everyone was pretending to insult each other. Maybe it was a thread for argumentative people who wanted to work off some of their appetite for insulting people by playing a game where they put joke insults on the board. I don't know. But it was fun. Some of the insults were more passive-aggressive than others! I'll tell you how some of it went, as best as I remember it:

"A forum member with the strange username Violet-Scented Peanut Butter joined the thread with the rude-sounding yet passive-aggressive comment, 'I can sympathise with the predicament I notice you in; I, too, have sometimes in the past been drawn to boorish threads with no intellectual content whatsoever.'

"A poster calling themselves Landlocked Sea Creature replied, 'Yes, one must definitely be mentally ill to participate in this thread, for sure.'

"someone who called himself Science-Minded Toast Crumb said, 'Well, misery loves company.'

"A poster with the username Living Desk responded, 'And old what's his name is still crashing on misery's couch.'

"Someone who called themselves Skyscraper-Sized Onion said, 'I think it's admirable that some people are still posting even though they're so old. I'm only guessing, but I'd estimate one or two posters are well over 130!'

"Landlocked Sea Creature said, 'Have you considered counselling?'

"Skyscraper-Sized Onion joked, 'Yes, I counsel many people like you on this forum who find forum conversation all a bit much sometimes.'

"Living Desk said, 'Have the voices in your head suggested purchasing any psychology books to help you learn how to?'

"Skyscraper-Sized Onion said, 'Oh, I think I can hear one of those voices in my head again. ... Ah no, on careful scrutiny, it's not intelligent enough to be one of those; it must be another forum member.'

"Living Desk said, 'Ah, so you are hearing one of those voices in your head again. Could be your doctor.'

"Landlocked Sea Creature replied, 'Amateur shrinks cause so much damage. So immoral!'

"Science-Minded Toast Crumb said, 'It's kind of you to share what your own voices are telling you.'

"Skyscraper-Sized Onion said, 'I'm glad you appreciate people doing that. I've got one now telling me he's your doctor. He tells me you've suffered from compulsive thumb-sucking for years, and you can't help yourself even in public. But since it's only a voice in my head, I wouldn't want to recommend that anyone takes it all that seriously.'

"Landlocked Sea Creature said, 'Yesterday I went to see my doctor, and said, "Doctor, doctor! I'm afflicted by a rash. Please help me." He told me I was suffering from spending too much time reading the Bible.'

"I didn't understand that joke at first, but then I realised it was that using the word 'afflicted' might mean you'd spent a fair while reading a more old-fashioned translation of the Old Testament, and you were getting into the habit of using its language. I'm not sure the joke was very passive-aggressive though.

"A forum member whose username was Modern-day Dinosaur said, 'Is it true what I heard about your IQ being 160? ... Oh sorry, silly me; that would be most unrealistic, wouldn't it; I mean there can't be many people in the world with IQ's that high. I wasn't trying to make you feel bad.'

"Landlocked Sea Creature said her IQ really was that high, and that it was a sad pity that certain contributors to the thread had lower ones.

"Modern-day Dinosaur said, 'Is it true you eat cockle shells for breakfast? You discard the cockles as waste and just eat the shells? That's certainly unusual. Still, I do want to stress that it's only a rumour.'

"Landlocked Sea Creature said, 'There's a legend in my village about a story teller who told so many tall tales that she couldn't tell the difference between small and far away anymore.'

"Modern-day Dinosaur said, 'They say someone who can get a good masterful attack like that in in the space of a few words is cleverer than someone who always takes a few pages to make a point like me. But I'm not so sure. Isn't there a saying somewhere about those who write short posts having short attention spans? ... No, perhaps it's just my imagination.'

"Landlocked Sea Creature said, 'Somewhere, over the rainbow.'

"Modern-Day Dinosaur joked, 'Ah yes, I believe you once said you live there?'

"Science-Minded Toast Crumb said, 'It's nice that you two have a thread where you can just be yourselves.'

"Landlocked Sea Creature said, 'It's so nice of you to join us.'

"Science-Minded Toast Crumb said, 'That time of the month for both of you, is it?'

"Someone who called himself Jet-Propelled Sparrow said, 'Bath time again for you, Science-Minded Toast Crumb?'

"Science-Minded Toast Crumb replied, 'Oh, you've heard of baths?'

"A poster calling themselves Elephant-Headed Cactus said, 'Wait - what's Science-Minded Toast Crumb doing out? Did someone leave his door unlocked or something?'

"for one reason or another, a poster called Pea Pod Nose just randomly said, 'Fruit'.

"Elephant-Headed Cactus replied, 'For some reason, some people think blowing raspberries is the pinnacle of musical talent. It's an interesting perspective.'

"Science-Minded Toast Crumb remarked, 'Someone sure likes the sound of their own voice.'

"Elephant-Headed Cactus replied, 'Well you have to admit it's a good one. Some people, sadly, could never aspire to one as good as that.'

"Jet-Propelled Sparrow said, 'There's something special about being tone deaf.'

"A forum member who called themselves Electric Carcass replied, 'Oh, I can see you really put a lot of thought into that post, Jet-Propelled Sparrow; it's always so rewarding to see the less capable forumites putting in a real effort to contribute! Well done!'

"Violet-Scented Peanut Butter remarked, 'Well done to you, too, Electric Carcass. Your posts are effortless and it shows.'

"Someone whose username was Venomous Toenail joined the conversation and said, 'Never let it be said that you wouldn't do the least you could do.'

"When someone wrote something they accidentally missed a word out of, Science-Minded Toast Crumb said, 'I think grammar and spelling are so important, and it's good to see that you've mastered one of them already.'

"Jet-Propelled Sparrow said, 'Is your mother helping you post again?'

"Science-Minded Toast Crumb said, 'Maybe you should try that too. It can't hurt. Well, probably not much.'

"For some reason, Jet-Propelled Sparrow said, 'Originality isn't really your thing, is it? It's sweet that you try though.'

"Electric Carcass joked, 'Talking of originality, I remember someone famous once said water is bicarbonate of soda in liquid form. I thought that was a strange, daft thing to say, especially for someone famous who was bound to be quoted as having said it so he ought to be more careful to only say sensible things in public. ... Oh no I remember now; it wasn't a famous person who said that; I have a suspicion it was you.'

"Pea Pod Nose replied, 'Are you in jail?'

"Electric Carcass said, 'No, but nevertheless I can sympathise with you. Some people say you need to have experienced the same thing to sympathise, but I don't think that's true. ... I hope you don't think I'm being nosy, but which jail is it? ... Actually, perhaps I'm presuming too much here; it is only a rumour, one all the more unreliable for having just been made up on the spur of the moment by myself.'

"Landlocked Sea Creature responded, 'The fewer words the better is my and George Orwell's motto.'

"Electric Carcass said, 'Landlocked Sea Creature seems to be suggesting I write novels for posts. Just not very long ones.'

"Landlocked Sea Creature replied, 'I was actually going to suggest that you write a novel instead of wasting your undoubted talents on a bunch of misanthropic pigs.'

"Science-Minded Toast Crumb responded to her, 'It's very thoughtful of you to try to increase the world's dwindling supply of indifferent fiction.'

"Landlocked Sea Creature replied, 'Didn't you contribute to this genre only last week with your story about a fly landing on dog mess, sucking some of it up and regurgitating it onto an ice cream? Or am I confusing you with someone of the same name?'

"Then Modern-day Dinosaur joked, 'Tell us all about when you won first prize in the writing competition you joined to win a lifetime's supply of coffee-flavoured shoelaces. What are you going to do with them?'

"Landlocked Sea Creature replied, 'I'm going to use them as shoelaces.'

"Jet-Propelled Sparrow said, 'Doesn't that necessitate owning shoes, or clothes of any kind?'

"Landlocked Sea Creature said, 'I've survived on a shoestring for years. Surely you know that?'

"Jet-Propelled Sparrow replied, 'True, but you always wear it in the wrong place. Not that I'm complaining.'

"Landlocked Sea Creature said, 'I wondered why you were staring at my nostrils.'

"Venomous Toenail said, 'I love this thread! Of course, some posters are more entertaining than others.'

"Jet-Propelled Sparrow said, 'I suppose that's one perspective.'

"Venomous Toenail joked, 'I hope you're not going to try to sell me a used car again.'

"Jet-Propelled Sparrow joked, 'No, but I do have the deed on that property you asked about.'

"Venomous Toenail said, 'It's very nice of you to offer to sell it to me; but much as I appreciate the offer, I've decided not to buy it now. It's a lovely place, but - just a personal preference - I didn't like all the rats crawling around the place and the rat droppings on the floor. I know some people love rats and even keep them as pets and are fondly indulgent of their little foibles like not tending to be house-trained; but perhaps I'm just a bit pernickety; but I'd prefer a different property that didn't possess such characteristics. Still, as I said, it's very nice of you to offer.'

"Pea Pod Nose said, 'You're right; some people shouldn't aspire to things that are clearly above their station in life.'

"Venomous Toenail said, 'You know, I used to think of you as a putrid foul stench-emitting maggot-ridden slimy shifty mouldy germ-infested filthy rat-faced irresponsible deceitful oafish immoral toxic despicable repulsive humanity-polluting puke-making slab of weasel carcass. So many of the things you do are just plain offensive, odorous and unethical. But now I realise that the warm and generous thing to do is to overlook others' faults wherever possible; I mean, it isn't as if we don't have any of our own. So I'd like to extend the hand of friendship to you now in the true spirit of forgiveness and goodwill.'

"Landlocked Sea Creature said, 'I love Christians.'

"Venomous Toenail replied, 'You know, I used to think of you as Pea Pod Nose's collaborator in crime. But now I realise that whatever you've done, the charitable thing is not to hold it against you. I mean, all your terrible deeds are now in the past, and perhaps you regret them all now. Those rumours about you selling child's kidneys for financial gain after you'd kidnapped the children and taken their kidneys out while they were asleep might not even be true. So as with him, I want to extend the warm hand of friendship to you and generously say I forgive your evil past from the bottom of my heart.'

"Landlocked Sea Creature said, 'What's that horrible smell? Did someone just scrape something evil out of the bottom of something?'

"Venomous Toenail said, 'I don't know, but there does seem to be a putrid foul stench wafting across these threads sometimes. I'm only 98.3% certain about who is emitting these ghastly odours. My stench detector has determined the source to within a radius of two posters. Far be it from me to be impolite enough to name names though.'

"When someone said something that didn't sound very passive-aggressive, Pea Pod Nose said, 'Someone forgot the thread topic.'

"Skyscraper-Sized Onion replied, 'Someone lost the plot.'

"Science-Minded Toast Crumb said, 'A plot involving you? 'Lost' or perhaps deliberately discarded?'

"Elephant-Headed Cactus commented, 'There was a time in my life when I foolishly assumed that all the people I encountered were likely to be friendly and intelligent. Sadly that was long, long ago.'

"Jet-Propelled Sparrow replied, 'And in a galaxy far, far away. When does the mother ship return to take you back?'

"Elephant-Headed Cactus said, 'There you go: That's evidence that I can't go a single day now without being reminded that the world isn't the nice place I thought it was all those years ago. It's sad.'

"Jet-Propelled Sparrow said, 'I admit, you're much better at this game than I am. But that should tell you something about your own personality.'

"Elephant-Headed Cactus said, 'Yes, it has to be said that some people do have much more creative personalities than others. It's not the fault of those with less creative personalities that they have them, naturally.'

"Landlocked Sea Creature said, 'Yes, it's so sad when people with creative personalities find themselves washed up on obscure internet forums. Imagine what could have been!'

"Skyscraper-Sized Onion said, 'Hmmmm. I'm imagining you are somewhere else right now.'

"Landlocked Sea Creature replied, 'Are you enjoying it?'

"Living Desk said, 'Are there in reality about ten people posting here under the name Landlocked Sea Creature? Or are you some kind of divine being, ten-in-one rather than three-in-one like the conventional God? It just seems remarkable to me that you could have posted over 20 thousand posts in the relatively short time you've been on the forum. Of course, there is another explanation, but I'm curious about the supernatural one.'

"(It's easy to tell how many messages people have posted on the forum, because the number's always listed under their names with their messages.)

"Jet-Propelled Sparrow said, 'Even if no one else appreciates your comments, your own post count certainly does. That should be enough.'

"Living Desk said, 'I'm not interested in my post count. If you're interested in having a high one yourself, that might be why you've got several thousand posts more to your name than I have. ... But of course, you Might have posted at least some of those for perfectly legitimate reasons.'

"Jet-Propelled Sparrow said, 'Hey, if that's what you have to tell yourself to sleep at night, I certainly won't stand in your way.'

"Living Desk said, 'Actually I only told myself you have a much bigger post count than me minutes ago when I did a very quick comparison of our post counts. If you think mine's a lot bigger than yours, well I know some people are terrible at maths and just don't understand such things; it's really not their fault at all. One really ought to feel pity for these people rather than laugh at them. I must strive to be a better person, and then I probably will.'

"Jet-Propelled Sparrow said, 'Yes, some people really are bad at maths, and at passive aggressive attacks.'

"Living Desk said, 'Well dear, at least you're prepared to acknowledge your failings. That's a commendable thing. Far too many people these days have egos so huge they would never admit they were bad at anything. Well done.'

"Jet-Propelled Sparrow said, 'It's true. Take your ego for example, some would say it's too big, but in your case I say no; I say let's see how big it can get! Science loves cases of the extreme.'

"Living Desk said, 'That's charitable of you. Thank you. Yes, my ego might well get bigger. Big egos often come with big achievements. Sadly, not everyone can lay claim to such achievements.'

"Jet-Propelled Sparrow said, 'It's even more impressive considering how little you've done and comparing it to the current size of your ego. I mean, wow, really wow!'

"Living Desk said, 'It's justified considering how famous I might be one day. Would you like me to drop a few pennies from a great height at your feet then to demonstrate my generous largesse to the comparatively underprivileged?'

"Landlocked Sea Creature said, 'Being universally shunned is not the same as being famous.'

"Skyscraper-Sized Onion said, 'You're right, as usual. Your wisdom must have come from your experience.'

"A while later, Violet-Scented Peanut Butter joked , "I've noticed an error at the bottom of the forum front page. It says: "Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors." That's obvious rubbish, since posters will often be quoting other people's opinions, and often actual facts, not their own opinions at all. Also, since many people here will share the same opinion, they can hardly be said to be "solely" the opinion of anyone. This is an obvious error, and yet somehow, I've never noticed you pointing it out. Perhaps you can show me where you have if I missed it?'

"Pea Pod Nose said, 'Your absorption with such irrelevant minutiae is remarkable. You deserve a medal.'

"Anyway, the thread went on like that for some time."

The girls giggled.

The Conversation Turns to Discussion of Heaven, and Whether Souls Really Exist

Then the conversation became serious again, as Judith said, "Anyway Deborah, as for what you were talking about before, you're probably right about the idea of forgiveness being used to manipulate or spite people sometimes. Jesus never said he'd approve of that kind of thing."

Deborah said, "Well that's good. But I think there's a problem with the idea of God's forgiveness as well. I mean, do you really think it's fair that someone can have lived a terrible life where they did a lot of harm, but they ask for God's forgiveness and start following him on their deathbed, and then they're allowed straight into heaven because they've declared that they've become a believer, when a lot of people who've lived good lives but never believed in God will go to hell?

"And why can people be forgiven just before they die but not just afterwards? Why does the mere difference of an hour or so of time and whether the soul happens to be inside or outside the body make such a drastic difference to God that it's the difference between whether a person goes to heaven or suffers for the whole of eternity in hell? It doesn't sound as if God's very forgiving after all! And what about people who've never even heard of the Christian God; why will they end up in hell no matter how good they've been, just because they didn't believe in him?"

Judith said, "I don't think that's quite what the Bible teaches will happen. For one thing, if a horrible person on their deathbed - or anyone else - isn't sincere when they ask for forgiveness and say they've started believing in God, I'm pretty sure God will know, and take that into account, so a horrible person would go to hell anyway. And the Bible says it's not just asking for forgiveness that counts, but that people don't want to live their old sinful lives any more, and they want to change their ways. So someone would have to want to be a new and better kind of person entirely to make it to heaven. And I think God would have to know they really would be different if they lived.

"And for another thing, I don't think it's a straightforward case of people who don't believe in God on earth going to hell no matter what. Jesus told a kind of parable, saying that on Judgment Day, he'll sit on his throne, and then he'll separate people into two groups, like a farmer might separate sheep from goats, and he'll praise one group for helping people when they were hungry and needed food, or thirsty and needed something to drink, or needed clothes, or were sick or in prison and they visited them, or were strangers in need of shelter and they took them in; and he'll invite them into heaven because of that. But then he'll turn to the other group and condemn them for not helping in those situations, and he'll send them to hell. So it seems a lot of people will be judged by how caring they've been."

Deborah said, "Well that's nice. But I don't suppose there's really a clear division in life between people who are really helpful and people who just don't care and would always refuse to help people. There must be a whole load of people who are somewhere in the middle, like people who give a fair bit to charity but wouldn't think to do voluntary work to help people, or who do a lot to help relatives in trouble, but don't go out of their way to help outsiders to their family. And what about people in wealthy countries who don't see many people around them who need help? They might not help people much, but it might not be that they're uncaring people; they might just not be made aware of many people's needs, and because they've got busy lives, they're too occupied to go out looking for them."

Judith said, "Well what Jesus said was just a parable, I think. I expect things will be more complicated than that. But it gives a general idea of what kind of standards God's going to be looking for."

Deborah asked, "What about people who've believed in Jesus all their lives but haven't done much good at all? Will they be let into heaven just for believing in him, as far as you know?"

Judith said, "Well Christianity isn't just about believing. It's about living the kind of life God wants people to live, like doing good to people. In fact, there's a Bible passage that says faith on its own is dead and useless.

"Anyway, as for what you asked before about people wanting forgiveness soon after they die, maybe they could still get it if they were sincere about rejecting the bad things they'd done in life and wanting to change, because they really did have a change of heart, although I don't know why a person would suddenly feel sorry for their sins and start wanting to change their ways just after they die, when they had no desire to do it before. Still, I think there's a lot we don't know."

Deborah said, "You're presuming the soul exists, of course. But what makes you so sure it does? Do you just believe in it because you've always been taught it does? That's probably why most people believe in them. But I think there are some problems with the idea.

"I think people assume their souls are just like them. But people's personalities can change a bit over time. It's possible for a brain surgeon to change someone's personality accidentally in an instant by just removing little bits of their brain, say if they've got a brain tumour, so they have to have it removed, and the surgeon will take out a touch of the surrounding brain as well in case it's got cancer cells in it that might cause more cancer to grow otherwise. Or brain damage can change the personality. I even heard that people's music preferences can sometimes change after they have brain surgery. Or they can become more aggressive, or less sociable. There are probably a lot of ways they can change.

"So if they do, does their soul transform in sync into the new damaged them, or does it stay the same as they were before? Or when someone gets dementia and loses their memory and ability to think straight, or it causes them to lose their impulse control, so they might start swearing at people and getting aggressive and making unwanted sexual advances and things, because the part of their brain that would have stopped them carrying out their urges has died, is there a soul in them that still has their old personality and abilities, or does it change with them, so it's still the authentic them, but it can't think straight either, and wants to do the things they do? If it's still like the old them, why can't it help them out, like taking over their thinking abilities and behaviour for them? Does it have to just lie dormant somewhere in them till after they die? Why would that be?

"And what about people who are born severely mentally retarded, so no matter how old they get, they'll still behave and think like, say, a three year-old? Will their soul be like that for all eternity? If it is, it won't be fair. But if it's very different from the way they are in life, how can it still be said to be them?

"And what about children who die? Do their souls grow up in heaven, or are they children for eternity? Are there toys in heaven they could play with? And will young soul-children need baby-sitting, or still looking after by their parents, so their parents might have dreamed of being able to rest in heaven, but they won't be able to after all because of all the childcare they have to do?

"And is the soul aware of anything that's going on at all while its owner's alive? If it is, does it just conveniently rest when they're asleep, so as to let them lose awareness of everything for a while so they can sleep properly? And is it somehow put unconscious if they're knocked out or get an anaesthetic, so the person doesn't have to be aware of what's going on around them during their operation if they're under anaesthetic, or it maybe wants to make them keep still while their brain gets over the shock a bit if they're knocked out? How is it made to go unconscious? Does God do that, or does it obligingly do it itself? It must be doing quite a bit of work, making sure it loses awareness of what's going on at the same time as they do. Or are spirits somehow just as susceptible to anaesthetic drugs as their owners are, even though they're not made of the things bodies are made of, so that could at least explain why people go unconscious during operations? What a fantastic coincidence that those drugs would work on them too! Or did God make it that way?

"And since presumably spirits don't have body clocks, since there's presumably no need to sleep in heaven, does the soul just rest when you're asleep because it wants to please you, because it's nice like that? Even the souls of psychopathic sadists are nice enough to do that for them? Or does God make them do it? Otherwise, how come the soul doesn't stay aware of things when you're asleep so you still have some awareness of what's going on around you?

"Or is it just lying dormant in people, waiting till they die before it wakes up and leaves the body?

"If it is, whereabouts is it in the body? Scientists who scan people's brains have never detected anything that wouldn't just decay as soon as people die. You'd probably say spirits can't be detected by current scientific instruments. But they're pretty sophisticated. In reality, I reckon the idea of the soul was probably made up by people in primitive societies who thought it just must exist, because they couldn't think of any other way to explain how people could have thoughts and feelings and intelligence, and that kind of thing, and they couldn't imagine how things like that that seemed to have so much vitality in them could just die with the body, and they couldn't imagine themselves not existing. But now scientists know so much about how the brain works, they know there isn't any need to explain things by saying souls must exist.

"And if the soul's in the brain, that must mean blood's flowing through it all the time, and nerve signals are transmitting through it all the time, without affecting it at all. Pretty amazing. And what if a person's in an accident and they get brain damage? Could the soul get damaged too? Or does it have the ability to quickly get out the way just before the impact that damages the brain? If it does that, where would it go, and what would make it be able to do that? Does it somehow have especially fast reflexes, despite being dormant? Does it have its own thoughts and reactions, independent of your will? If it does, how can you be sure it's really you, since it's got its own will and thoughts? Or does God quickly move it out of the way? If he does, why can't he do something to move an entire person to prevent them from getting brain damage?

"And if the soul doesn't transform into the new you after you've been brain damaged, because it somehow manages to escape before the impact if it's an accident that causes the damage, is it really still you? And then does it get back in your brain after the accident, so you're like two personalities in one, because your soul with the old personality's snuggled up in your brain somewhere waiting to see what happens, but the new you's struggling through all the problems and personality changes caused by the brain damage?

"What if you slowly recover after your brain damage, but you're never the same as you were before because you don't recover fully, so you might, say, always have a bad memory from then on, or always have a bad temper when you didn't before? Is there one day when the soul does transform into the new you? If so, how does it choose when to do it? Or is there an outside force like an angel or God choosing for it? Do you think God might have a big workforce of angels who are specially given the task of reprogramming souls to be like the transformed versions of their owners? If he does, just when does the soul become like the new them? What if their personalities are always defective in some way because of the brain damage? Is it fair that their souls should be like the new them instead of the old them?

"Actually, everyone's personality changes a bit throughout their lives. You know, I've heard that people are more likely to take risks when they're teenagers, and a lot of people grow wiser with age. Or some people can mellow with age, so they don't get so angry about things; and some people become more embittered as they grow older and more bad things happen to them. So which version of them is their soul? What if a person becomes wiser with age, but they grow more disillusioned with life so they get a bit depressed more often at the same time? Is their soul the less wise but more optimistic version of them, or the wiser but more depressed version of them?

"Or what if they get a painful illness before they die and it isn't treated well, and that makes them more bad-tempered or easily stressed for months before they die? Will their soul end up being the more bad-tempered or easily stressed version of them, when it would have been a nicer version of them if they hadn't got so ill? If it's the more bad-tempered or easily stressed version of them, is that really fair on them?"

All the questions were making Judith feel uncomfortable. She said, "You don't expect me to be able to answer all those questions, do you? Apart from the fact that I can't remember most of them now, the Bible doesn't say anything about any of them, I don't think, so I haven't got anything to go on."

Deborah said, "Well if the Bible did say more about souls, why would you believe in them just because it says they exist? What makes you so certain the Bible's reliable? I reckon you only believe in souls because you've always been taught they exist, and you've never questioned it."

Judith felt even more uncomfortable, and said, "I suppose you might be right. But I'd have a hard time not believing in them. There's so much we still don't know about the universe that I think it would be silly to deny that they could possibly exist, just because we don't know how they could operate, and no one's ever seen one, or been able to detect them with scientific instruments. I mean, a couple of hundred years ago, who would ever have believed it would be possible to communicate with people who live the other side of the world within seconds using email or the phone? If this world survives another century, scientists will probably have discovered things we'd never even dream were possible today! How can anyone tell that the reason the soul hasn't been discovered by scientists isn't just that it's made of a different kind of matter than the ones they can detect or something? So because there's so much we don't know, you're not going to be able to convince me the soul doesn't exist, no matter how daft you make the idea of it sound!"

Deborah said, "Well OK then, but since there's no hard evidence that souls do exist, why not just keep an open mind and reserve judgment about whether they exist or not, instead of just believing in them because you were always taught they exist?"

Judith said thoughtfully, "Well I suppose I like believing in them, so I wouldn't want to give up the belief; but apart from that, somehow it just seems implausible to me that all our emotions and thoughts and ideas and things can be entirely to do with brain chemicals, and that the mix just developed the way it did over millions of years of lucky new chance combinations of increasingly complex material, or whatever science says they did. I haven't got a science qualification. Maybe if I did have, I'd know more about the way brain chemicals cause feelings and things, so I'd be more easily convinced that souls don't exist. But I can't imagine being convinced as it is. And I've heard there's still a whole lot scientists don't know about the way the brain works; so since there's still so much to discover about that, it might be a long long time before they could hope to discover anything about the soul, if it would even be possible to ever do that.

"I've heard the brain described as the most complex thing in the world, and that there are loads of things scientists don't know about how it can work. For instance, I read that one thing scientists don't understand is how the brain can store things in the memory for years and years, and then instantly bring it to mind when you want it, when you haven't thought about it for years, such as if you hear a record quite a bit on the radio, but then you don't hear it or think about it for over a decade, but then one day you hear it, and you instantly know what it is."

Deborah said, "Yes, but just because there's a lot scientists don't know at the moment, it doesn't mean they'll never know it, or that they'll discover that souls have got something to do with it after all."

The Girls Begin Joking Again

One of the girls said, "Thinking about how complex the brain is does make you wonder how it got here though. I mean, I haven't got a science qualification either, so I never learned about evolution in school. But I read the autobiography of a Christian man once - I can't remember what his name was or what his book's called, but it was almost entirely on a different subject to the one we're talking about; but he said that if evolution really happened - I mean man evolving gradually from single-celled organisms to something as complex as us, - it's a bigger miracle than any miracle in the Bible!

"That sounds like good sense to me, since I don't understand how anything as complex as a human brain and body could have developed over time, when the only material around in the first place was a bunch of chemicals, that can't have made anything very complex at all, - although as I said, I didn't do much science at school, so I don't know about the theories scientists have about how it might have happened. About the most scientific thing I ever learned at school was how best to strategically put beakers of water on the tops of doors and close them most of the way, so teachers would come in all unsuspecting, and they'd fall on them when they pushed the doors open. I never did anything like that myself though, so I wasn't involved in the testing of the science."

The girls giggled. Then Deborah grinned and said, "OK, talking of the miracles in the Bible, just supposing for a minute that there is a God, imagine if you met him after you died, and he said, 'You believed some funny things in the beforelife, didn't you!' ... Well, I don't know if 'beforelife' is a real word, but if the afterlife is where people go when they die, presumably life on earth must be the beforelife. Anyway, imagine if God said to you, 'Jesus didn't really do miracles, you know! All those miracle stories were just his disciples' way of trying to use picture language to illustrate how great and caring they thought he was; they were never meant to be believed literally!' and then he burst out laughing, as if he thought you were silly for believing them. How would you feel?"

Tracy said, "I doubt that would happen. But if it did, I'd feel annoyed; and I'd say to him, 'Well how were we supposed to know that? And besides, if I believed what I was taught, it just means I was doing the kind of thing you designed human nature to do. Designing human nature to be a certain way, and then laughing at people for behaving that way, is like as if an engineer designed a radiator that didn't heat up a room properly, and then when it was made, he tested it out, and then laughed at it and ridiculed it, saying, 'This radiator doesn't even work!' when he was the one who designed it! You'd think an engineer like that was daft, wouldn't you! Well it's just the same when you design human nature to be a certain way, and then mock people for being that way!'"

Deborah grinned and said, "Do you really think you'd dare say that to God?"

Tracy joked, "I expect so. If I was annoyed, so my spirit-adrenaline started to kick in, and my spirit-heart started beating faster and pumping spirit-stress hormones around my spirit-body, and my spirit-anger flared up, it would probably make me feel braver than normal, so I'd say what I jolly well liked to anyone!"

Deborah said for fun, "Do you really think your spirit-body would have spirit-hormones and all those other functions? Interesting. If spirit bodies are that much like human ones, do you think things might sometimes go wrong with them, so a person could have an underactive spirit-thyroid, or spirit-heart disease that was caused by eating too much of the spirit-party food in heaven, or spirit-cancer? So people would have to go to the heavenly spirit-doctor for some spirit-medicine, or to have a spirit-operation, or some spirit-chemotherapy?"

Tracy joked, "If it's actually possible for people to get spirit-illnesses like that in heaven, it won't be very heavenly, will it! But if they do, there had better be spirit-doctors to treat them, since otherwise, where might they go if they die of them? Heaven's for people who die the first time. Maybe people who died again would go to a separate heaven, miles above the first, specially for the ghosts of spirits!"

One of the other girls smiled and said, "If that happened, and then any of the spirit-ghosts ever came down from that heaven to the original heaven, I wonder if any of the spirits in there would be scared because they'd seen a spirit-ghost!

"Talking of heaven though, I was on an Internet forum, and a man said he thinks Christianity's got a grim side, because Christians are expected to bow down to God and worship him as a superior, when no one likes feeling inferior to anyone.

"I joked, 'That's a thought! Since it seems people in heaven will be worshipping God for eternity, maybe that means never-ending bowing, which will give people never-ending backache. Atheists could use that one to persuade people to stop being Christians! It might be a great way of doing it!'

"The man said Christianity's degrading, because Christians are expected to be slaves to God, and no one wants to be a slave. Actually, I think the Bible does say Christians ought to be like slaves to Christ.

"But I joked, 'Are you suggesting that in heaven, God will think of everyone as his slaves, so he'll demand that Christians do all his housework and gardening? Heaven's a big place, so yes, I can imagine how slavery like that might become tiresome, since there'll be so much work to do. Or do you imagine Christians might be forced to pray whenever God dictates, and to get up early in the morning and sing, and to clean all the harps once a day, and to stay up half the night washing the robes, and that kind of thing? Yes, that could certainly get irksome as well.

"'If you think about it though, you could actually describe yourself as a slave as it is if you were being a bit fanciful - a slave to your housework; after all, you have to do it whether you want to or not, unless you get someone else to. Then again, at least it won't whip you if you don't do it. ... You'll probably just get problems like mould growing on your washing up.'"

The girls giggled.

Deborah Objects to the idea That Babies Have to be Baptised to Enter Heaven, and Judith Explains That the Bible Doesn't Say that

But then Deborah said, "Seriously though, I've got some questions about heaven: For one thing, what's this barbaric Bible verse where Jesus seems to say people can't get to heaven unless they're baptised, so lots of parents have been worried when they've had babies who are too ill to live very long, thinking it's urgent to get them christened before they die? What if they die before it can be arranged? Why is God so petty he'd stop them going to heaven just because they didn't get a bit of water sprinkled on them and a blessing from a priest? He seems pretty silly to me! And where do babies go if they're not allowed into heaven because of that?"

Judith said, "Actually, I'm pretty sure that belief's based on a misinterpretation of a Bible verse. It's not barbaric really. Baptism's really all about symbolism. Originally it was always done by immersion in water. Going right under the water was meant to symbolise dying to deliberate sin and burying the old sinful life; and then rising out of the water was meant to symbolise the renewal of life, - starting a new and better life, following Jesus. I'm pretty sure babies weren't baptised originally, because baptism was meant to symbolise making a personal commitment to leaving old bad ways behind and starting anew, committing to living a good life from then on. Obviously babies can't do that. And the Bible says baptism's for people who've started believing in Jesus, which babies also can't do.

"Baptism by just being sprinkled with water might have come in because in cold countries, people might have worried that being baptised in rivers, like the first people to be baptised were, going right under the cold water, would have given them chills or something, or would just have been pretty unpleasant. I'm not sure about that though.

"But I can understand why people think it's impossible to get to heaven without being baptised, because there are a few Bible verses that seem to say that. But they've got different interpretations that are more likely to be accurate.

"The first one's in John's gospel, where it says one of the Pharisees called Nicodemus came to Jesus at night to have a talk with him. Maybe he chose the night-time because he didn't want the other Pharisees to know he was interested in Jesus' teaching; but I'm not sure about that. But he said they could tell Jesus was a teacher sent from God, saying no one could do the miracles he did if they weren't. Then Jesus told him that no one could get into the Kingdom of God without being born again. It seems Nicodemus thought that was a weird thing to say, and asked him how he imagined that could actually be possible.

"Then Jesus said that people needed to be born of water and the Spirit to get into God's kingdom. What he meant by the Spirit is the Holy Spirit, which the Bible says is a part of God that's given to people when they commit their lives to Jesus.

"It seems that some of the churches that have been started have interpreted what Jesus said about being 'born of water' to mean it's impossible to get to heaven without being baptised. But Jesus could have been referring to a baby being in a bag of fluid in its mother's womb before it's born; or another interpretation is that he was referring to the same process when he both said that people need to be born of water and when he said they need to be born of the Spirit, instead of referring to two different things, since the idea of being cleansed with water was used as a metaphor at the time for being cleansed of sin, like in one of the letters of Paul, where he wrote about Christians being saved from hell by the 'washing' of 'regeneration' and the renewal of the Holy Spirit.

"And the metaphor of being washed with water to symbolise being cleansed from sin is used in the Old Testament as well, like when a psalmist asks God to 'wash' his sins away, and when a prophet declared that God was saying that there would come a future time when he would put his spirit in people and give them new softer hearts, moving them to obey his laws, and that they'd be sprinkled with clean water and cleansed from all their impurities and sins. And apparently there are other passages in Jewish literature that make it clear that the thing about water was a metaphor for being cleansed from sin by God's Holy Spirit.

"So what Jesus could well have meant was that to get into God's kingdom, people's sins would have to be washed away, and the Holy Spirit would have to make them like new and better people.

"Another verse that's sometimes interpreted to mean being baptised is necessary for people to get to heaven is one in a letter from the apostle Peter, which mentions the family of Noah being saved from the flood inflicted on the rest of the world in the ark. Then it says baptism's like a symbol of the waters of the flood, which other Bible verses suggest it is too, because they say it's symbolising the death of the old sinful nature. Peter quickly goes on to explain that he doesn't mean that the water cleanses people itself, but that what saves people from hell is the pledge people make to keep a clear conscience before God when they're baptised. Baptism's the symbol of it. The wording isn't as clear as it could be in some Bible translations of those verses in the Letter of Peter, so they've been quite easy to misinterpret. But interpreting them in the way I've just described makes them fit in with other Bible passages that say that's what baptism's for.

"Of course, people don't have to wait till they're baptised before they promise to keep a clear conscience. And babies can't promise that at all, since they don't even understand what's going on at a christening."

One of the group said, "Christenings are nice though. I remember getting to eat some nice cake when my younger brother and sisters were Christened."

The girls giggled, and Judith said with a grin, "You could eat nice cake any time! And the significance of baptism isn't supposed to be that people get to eat nice cake!

"People can still have nice ceremonies where their babies get blessed and prayed for. It's just that the act of christening babies won't automatically get them into heaven when they die. People have to grow up a bit till they can make a personal commitment to follow Jesus before that can happen.

"That doesn't mean little children and babies will get slung into hell when they die. The Bible isn't clear about what happens to them, but there are strong hints, like the fact that it says the reasons people go to hell are for rejecting Christ and knowingly committing sin. Little children and babies, as well as severely mentally handicapped people, aren't capable of doing either one of those.

"Also, hell's supposed to be a punishment; but a baby or little child or severely mentally handicapped person wouldn't be able to understand they were being punished, as well as not deserving it; so it wouldn't really be justice.

"Another thing is that Jesus said something that could be taken to mean children go to heaven. Some of the gospels say that one day some parents brought little children to him so he could bless them, and his disciples told them to go away because they thought the parents were just distracting him from his proper work; but Jesus was annoyed with them and told them to let the children come to him, saying the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to people like those children, and that unless people receive it like a child, they'll never enter it.

"He didn't explain exactly what he meant by that; maybe he was talking about the importance of just being trusting, instead of philosophising about it or something; or maybe he was talking about something like unquestioning obedience; I don't know. In a later passage in the New Testament, Paul commanded people to be adults in their thinking, but as innocent as babies when it came to sinfulness. I don't know if both Jesus and Paul were thinking of the same thing when they were saying people should be childlike in some ways. but the fact that Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to people like those children suggests that children will go to heaven.

"No one knows for certain. But also, it's hard to imagine Jesus, who spent his days healing people and caring for them, being so hard-hearted he'd make babies go to hell, when they hadn't even done anything or much that was deliberately sinful.

"About baptism, though, basically, it was something Christians were requested to do by New Testament writers to symbolise a public declaration of their new faith, not something they had to do to get to heaven.

"I think there's some evidence that when people make commitments to things in public, they're less likely to go back on them than they are if no one knows about them, because they'll be worried they'll be judged as looking bad by some people if they do, and that can make them think twice. It's possible that that was what baptism was really meant to be for, but I'm not sure about that."