Chapter Three (continued)
Deborah and Judith Debate the Most Gruesome Parts of the Bible

(To recap: The previous page ended with one of the girls making humorous comments about conversations she's had with atheists on an Internet forum, including a joke she resorted to making about God ordering the Israelites to invade Canada in the Old Testament, for some light relief after they wouldn't listen to what she had to say in an attempt to defend God.)

Deborah Brings Home the Horror of the Bible Story of the Great Flood in the Time of Noah, and Challenges Judith to Justify it

But then Deborah turned the conversation serious again, by saying, "The thing is, you can make jokes about the nasty bits of the Bible and things like that if you like; but you've got to admit that atheists have got a point when they criticise Christians for just thinking of some of them as interesting stories, and things like that, and thinking God's loving despite them, - although it doesn't sound fair of the atheists who insulted you to have done that.

"But I'm thinking about things like the story of the supposed flood in the time of Noah. I was just going to ask you about that before we had an unscheduled humour break, Judith. You can't say God was just severely punishing the people of earth because it was the only method they'd respect enough, so it was the only way of making them change, which you said was the reason for other Old Testament punishments, - when God actually supposedly killed almost everyone, so they wouldn't have had a chance to change!

"And what had the animals ever done to deserve it? Why did he kill those too? And what about little children and babies? I bet you've never really imagined what it would have been like for them. It seems a lot of Christians just accept stories like that without thinking about how nasty they really are. Have you thought about it? Just imagine what it would have been like, just supposing for a minute that it really happened: Imagine mothers desperately trying to rescue their children, taking them to the highest point they could climb to, and then as the floodwaters rose, holding their babies up as far as they could, for as long as they could before the floodwaters drowned them. Imagine them having terrified little children clinging to them, and having to choose which one to hold above the waters because they couldn't lift them all up. And what had little children and babies ever done to deserve it? Why destroy the babies and children along with the real sinners? I still don't understand why you could think of God as a loving God when he could do that."

Judith felt uncomfortable yet again, and a bit upset at the thought of babies and children being killed. She said thoughtfully, "I agree it sounds really horrible, and it's true that I've been used to thinking about it without thinking of the horror of it. I think that might be because I first heard about it years and years ago, and I suppose because of its supernatural elements, it had a kind of otherworldly quality that made it seem quite distant from the world we live in, more like a fairy tale than a historical event. And since I heard about it quite often, I suppose I might have just grown up so habituated to hearing about it that I never really thought about it in-depth, like I might if I heard about it for the first time today, knowing more about what it would really be like for people dying in a flood than I might have done when I was little.

"And I suppose I am biased really, because I want to believe the Bible's true. But having said that, what if people wouldn't have been much better off if God hadn't done anything? The Bible says the world was full of violence, with people doing evil things all the time, and that was why God destroyed almost all of humanity. If it really was that bad, people would have been suffering a lot as it was.

"Babies might have suffered the horrendous experience of drowning in the flood because of what God did; but the deaths of the children might have spared them a lifetime of violence, or prevented some of them from taking on the habits of the people around them and committing it when they grew up. But the Bible does imply that people would at least have been killed quickly, because it says that apart from the rain, the 'fountains of the great deep were burst open', which might have referred to some kind of activity that caused major tsunamis, - not that it wouldn't have been horrendous to die in those, but it might at least have been quicker than the process you describe of people trying desperately to protect their children for maybe days while the waters rose higher and higher and higher.

"It's horrible when a baby suffers pain, especially because they won't be able to understand why it's happening. But some babies grow up to inflict pain on other babies. So who knows what would have happened if they'd lived. If you'd seen Hitler killed when he was a baby, just supposing you'd been alive in those days and he had been killed, you'd have been really upset by it, not knowing he would have grown up to be Hitler if he'd been allowed to live. We'd both have been upset. But his death would have been a good thing really.

"Having said all that, the Flood story sounds harsh to me too. But another thing about the babies and children being killed along with the adults is that it's possible that as strange as it might sound, it was the most humane option in the circumstances, like what the article about the Amalekites I read said. Imagine what would have happened if there were lots and lots of babies and little children around without adults to care for them, because only the sinners had been killed, and all the adults were sinners. A lot of the babies and little children would have starved to death, not having anyone to find or make them food. And without adult supervision, and especially if they'd become accustomed to seeing violence all around them from before, a lot of the older children might have got into criminal behaviour and formed gangs, partly to protect themselves against other groups of marauding older children; and the cycle of violence would likely have just repeated itself.

"And if the animals had been spared, a lot of the little children might have been terrorised by animals on the loose looking for food, in competition with them."

Deborah said, "Possibly, I suppose. But conditions can't have been much better in the ark, if it really existed! How did Noah and his family stop themselves being eaten by the lions and tigers and bears and leopards and things? And how did they stop all the carnivorous animals from eating all the smaller animals? Noah would have had his work cut out, trying to run round the ark separating them all the time! How could he and his family have managed it, when so many attacks must have been going on at once? And some of the attacks must have happened so quickly, how did he get there in time to stop them? Imagine how hard it would have been to protect the worms, for example, when no sooner had he got them into the ark than loads of birds might have swooped down to chomp them up!

"And moving around to try to protect the animals from each other would have been really hard, since they would have been packed so tightly together it would have been hard for Noah and his family not to step on them and crush loads while they were running to try to separate animals they'd just spotted in danger from their attackers! And there would always have been a danger that bigger animals would kill smaller ones just by moving a bit and accidentally stepping on them! And imagine how high all the animal droppings must have piled up! How would he have got rid of them? It seems he would have been walking through mountains of them! And the ark must have stunk to high heaven!

"And how would Noah and his family ever have got any sleep, with all the nocturnal animals roaring and howling, and whatever else they would have done? There wouldn't have been enough room for them to lie down to sleep anyway; and if they did they'd have been lying in animal droppings! It must have been so unhygienic, they would surely have spent the whole time on the verge of death, because horrible diseases must have been spreading all over the place!"

Judith thought for several seconds, staring blankly into space, as if imagining it would provide her with inspiration. It didn't. But then, she hadn't really expected it to.

Then she said, "I don't know. The Bible doesn't give that kind of detail. I know you think the whole story sounds daft. But there are probably things we don't know that would have made things easier.

"The Bible does say the ark was on three levels, so there could have been some separation between the animals. And it says there was a window in the ark; so maybe droppings could sometimes have been shovelled out of it. I really haven't got much of an idea though."

Deborah grinned and said, "Do you think maybe the family had a rotor, where one was always on dropping-shovelling duty, trying desperately to get them out the window quickly enough that they could avoid so much rain pouring in that it would sink the ark, or drown any little animals that were unfortunate enough to have got too close to the window? And imagine how careful they'd have to have been to make sure they didn't accidentally scoop up loads of insects and other little creatures along with the droppings, and accidentally hurl them out the window too!

"And it would have been hellish to have been on cleaning duty, trying to clean all the muck off all the animals when they'd been crawling or walking around in it, while they were often being splattered with droppings from above by the birds flying around! And it would have taken some effort to have prevented the little animals being suffocated by the droppings heaping up around them!"

One of the girls smiled and half-joked, "Maybe God put all the animals into a supernaturally-induced coma for most of the journey, and slowed their bodily functions right down so they didn't need to eat or do droppings."

Judith said seriously, "Actually, I reckon that's a possibility. Or it could be that the Flood didn't really happen, but the story was just a morality tale, told to try to influence people to be good and stop committing crimes. It's impossible to know."

Deborah said, "Well if it was meant as just a morality tale, it was written by people who obviously didn't care that they were making God look like a primitive barbarian.

"If it was meant to describe something that really happened though, God looks primitive for real! Destroying almost every human on earth seems a bit like burning a house down and killing an entire family because the husband's a wife beater. I mean, it's hard to believe everyone on earth was as bad as each other.

"Surely a loving god could have thought of better ways of handling things than flooding the world and killing everyone, such as somehow cultivating groups of wiser people who could have rescued a lot of the kids who'd otherwise have got into sinful ways, who could have mentored them and helped them lead better lives. It's hard to believe there wouldn't have been a fair number of good kind people around as it was. I mean, even in the countries with the most violence today, there must still be a lot of nice people, you'd have thought.

"And it's simplistic to think of people as just sinners anyway, instead of analysing the causes of their behaviour and trying to do something about them. You know, sin isn't just a matter of people being evil; it's partly a matter of cause and effect, - you know, like a violent childhood can turn some people violent. I'm not saying people shouldn't take responsibility for the way they behave; but some people's behaviour's more understandable when you find out how they got into behaving the way they do. You'd have thought a powerful God who knows a lot more than we do would be more understanding than us. People sometimes get lighter sentences in human courts because of mitigating circumstances - like when they're found guilty of manslaughter instead of murder, when they'd had a lot of provocation from the person they killed. So you'd have thought God would have been able to punish people according to how much they deserved it, instead of killing everyone.

"You know the kind of thing I mean: Some Christians might condemn people like prostitutes and drug addicts and so on as just sinners, and look down on them; but some of them might have got into that lifestyle because of problems, such as being abused while they were growing up and getting into drugs to soothe their feelings, or running away and getting into prostitution to get enough money to live on, or getting into drugs first and then getting into prostitution to fund their addictions. And a lot of burglars steal to support drug habits, so some of them might stop it if they were given the opportunity to get onto a good drug rehabilitation programme. It seems as if your God hasn't got a good understanding of why some people start committing crimes, or of how some crimes are worse than others. Why did he use a flood as punishment, instead of using something where just truly nasty people could have been picked off?"

Judith said, "That's an interesting point. Regarding saving some of the children from abusive parents, I don't know how possible it would have been for primitive societies to have organised large-scale schemes to rescue lots of children from violent families and put them in better homes. And if most people were cruel and violent, there might not have been many decent ones to choose from!

"I agree that a more humane solution would have been better than destroying everyone with the Flood in the time of Noah. But maybe to have been a much better community, it would have needed things I don't know if it would have been possible for primitive societies to have set up, like social services, a sophisticated police force to catch criminals and get them put in prison, and to make families who were mistreating children give them up if they didn't want to, and also foster parenting, and a prison system and so on.

"After all, one thing that would have been necessary for all that would have been quite a sophisticated monetary system, so the employees working on all those things could have been paid from money got through government taxes, - and there would have to have been some way of making sure the government itself was decent, and a lot of countries haven't even got good ones today; and there would also have to have been enough food production so lots of people didn't need to work on the land to survive, so they could work in jobs like police and social services instead, - and I think farming methods only got that efficient a couple of hundred years ago when new technology was invented. And they probably didn't even have money in the days of the Flood. And to make society better, it might have taken efficient techniques for catching criminals, which might only have developed quite recently, like with fingerprinting and so on.

"And the first societies on earth, like the ones that would have presumably existed at the time of the Flood, might have just been a set of small communities, each one maybe governed by the man who had the most power and ambition, and the most ability to scare rivals off or something. I don't really know if I'm right about these things. But I think there's probably something in it."

Deborah said, "Maybe, although it might not have needed to be anywhere near as complicated as all that, since the population of earth would presumably have been really low in those days, so nothing on a large scale would need to have been organised; and if there were just small communities dotted around the place, each one governed by a chief, you'd have thought any good chiefs could have just organised a small band of volunteers who'd just be responsible for taking care of their particular tiny community, while their needs for food and things were catered to by the others, - although I suppose really sinful communities, if they really were as bad as the Bible says, wouldn't have wanted to do that.

"In any case though, now the world is more sophisticated, why does god supposedly want to end it all by fire, according to the Bible, as if he still can't think of any better way to deal with sinners than destroying everyone, even though nowadays, we have got efficient police forces and prisons and social services and so on?"

Judith said, "Well we have in this country, but I think there are a lot of places where they're not nearly as good; and besides, I can imagine that if God doesn't end the world, human leaders will do it with nuclear weapons and so on! Some people's human nature probably isn't that different to the natures of the people the prophets condemned in Old Testament times, that I was talking about earlier; and there's still a lot of evil going on in the world that no one seems to be able to do anything much about, more in some countries than in others."

The Conversation Turns Humorous Again, But Sometimes Darkly So

One of the girls said, "I wonder how long we've got before the world ends. Do you think we should be enjoying ourselves here instead of talking about gruesome stuff, just in case it happens soon, and then just before we're blasted into oblivion, we start regretting not spending more time having fun? ... Then again, if we do regret it, we won't have the chance to be doing it for long!"

Then Deborah said, "Imagine if some horrendous catastrophe happens in 2020 and the world ends, and billions of people suffer a lot in the process, including loads of babies and little children, and when you get to heaven, you meet Jesus and ask him why it happened, and he says, 'Well I was talking to God about this. He wanted the world to end soon, and he just thought the number 2020 had a pretty-sounding ring about it, what with it being kind of symmetrical, so he thought that would be a good year to end the world. I told him it didn't sound sensible or fair to me to end the world then just because he liked the sound of the number, but he just sternly told me he was the boss and he was going to do what he wanted.'

"Or imagine if the world ended because of a massive nuclear war, and you got to heaven and asked Jesus why it ended when it did, and he said, 'Well God had to end the world when he did, if he was going to end it at all, because it wouldn't have been long before a whole new set of younger progressive leaders came to power all around the world, who all wanted peace and all wanted to make their countries better places; so God would have lost the opportunity to use nuclear war to end the world if he'd let that happen, and nuclear war was just the easiest way he could have ended the world; anything else would have taken a whole load more effort and organisation.'"

Judith smiled slightly despite herself, but said, "Oh stop messing around! I don't believe God's like that at all!"

Deborah replied, "How do you know he isn't?"

Judith said, "Well he certainly doesn't come across that way in the New Testament!"

Deborah replied, "What about in the Book of Revelation? Have you forgotten about that one?"

"And I read that some of it's not even about the end of the world, but it symbolically foretold the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem after the Romans invaded Israel in AD 70, which I think some New Testament passages suggested would be the official ending of the age of the Jewish Old Testament Law, and the official beginning of the age of Christianity. It came about after the Romans, who'd been ruling Israel for some time, sent an army in to crush a rebellion against Roman rule that was stirred up by Jewish religious extremists, who holed out in the temple in Jerusalem, which was the centre of the worship of God in Israel. The Romans might have destroyed it to get rid of them.

"And then over the next century, I think most Jews who lived in Israel had to get out, and were dispersed among other countries, where they were under the laws of those governments, instead of being under the authority of the old Jewish religious leaders, who'd still had a lot of power and influence over the people before despite the Romans ruling Israel, I think, so I think they'd had to obey the strict Judaism the government enforced, or else risk being punished by the authorities for it. But that all came to a violent end, although a lot of Jews would have still practised their religion in their own communities in other countries."

Deborah said, "That's a gruesome history lesson! But anyway, as for the world ending, surely God's going to have to end it in some catastrophic way that'll cause a lot of suffering if he wants to end it at all, unless he somehow puts everyone into a coma at the same time just before he does, so no one suffers when he ends it. If he doesn't, then loads of people are just bound to suffer!"

Judith said, "Well whatever happens, let's just hope it's quick!"

Deborah replied, "Well obviously I won't be hoping anything at all, since I don't believe in God."

One of the others said, "I wonder when the world really will end. Anyway, that thing that came up in the conversation about a lot of children going on to behave like their parents, like getting into the habit of being violent if they grew up around violence, reminds me of a poem I read on an Internet forum not long ago, where someone quoted it. It's by someone called Philip Larkin, who I think was some kind of 20th century poet. I normally loathe poetry; but I found this one appealing. It goes something like this:

"'They screw you up, your mum and dad.
They might not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

"'Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.'

"I was just thinking: Imagine if Jesus had actually said that in the Sermon on the Mount, or in some other teaching he gave. Maybe a lot of people who became Christians would have taken the last line as a literal command, and never had kids. I wonder what the world would be like today if that had happened! I wonder if it would have meant there would be billions fewer people in the world now than there are today! Or maybe it wouldn't, since maybe it would have meant Christianity died out pretty quickly, since not many children would have got to be born who were raised as Christians. I wonder if that would have meant that loads of people would still be worshipping Roman and Greek gods today, or other Pagan gods, like Saxon ones. Maybe a lot of black people in America would be worshipping African Pagan gods. Or maybe lots of people would have given up god-worship altogether, so loads more people would be atheists."

One of the group said, "Maybe. I once invented the idea that atheists are actually worshippers of a goddess called Athe. ... Well, I thought I'd invented the idea, but then I found out that other people had done it first.

"But I came up with the idea after arguing with a few militant atheists on a couple of Internet forums, who seemed to enjoy being insulting, and wouldn't listen to anything I said, so in the end I resorted to just having a bit of fun.

"I hope you don't mind me talking about this, Deborah. They said much worse things than you have, like insulting things. They said they think Christianity's just a load of nonsense; and they kept bringing up the same few subjects time and time again, like Noah's Flood, seeming to think that if they could persuade Christians it can't have happened, they could rejoice as our entire faith crumbled into dust and we'd become atheists like them. And they seemed to think that if that didn't happen, it would be because we've been so indoctrinated with Christianity we've been brain damaged, so we're incapable of thinking for ourselves.

"They brought up Noah's Flood so often, it got to sound as if they thought it's one of the main tenets of the Christian Faith, like as if when we're asked what our main beliefs are, instead of saying we believe in Jesus, we'll declare, 'I believe in the Great Flood in the time of Noah!'

"There was one of them who said a worldwide flood where Noah got together two of each animal can't possibly have happened, because it would have meant he'd have had to travel all the oceans of the world to get to all the continents, collecting all the millions of different species that lived there, and then delivering them back safely after the floodwaters had died down, using a little boat that wasn't even powered with a motor, or even sails. He said the flood story was probably a myth, based on a local tsunami in the Middle East or something.

"And then, another username he was using replied and agreed with him. It was against the forum rules to have more than one account there, but he had several, so he could pretend to be different people. I don't know why he enjoyed doing that so much.

"Anyway, who knows what really happened all those years ago, or what the real intentions of the writers of that story were at the time. But it seems to imply that there weren't many people on earth at that time and they all lived in the same region of the world; so it could really have been a local flood, and the word 'world' in the original language could have referred to the known world then. But most Christians probably don't think it's central to their faith either way.

"There was someone else on the forum who used to say all kinds of horrible things about Christians. He and the militant atheists agreed that Hitler was a Christian, and that he really demonstrated what Christianity's about. I don't know whether they meant what they said, or whether they were just trolling. But as well as that, they kept going on about Christianity or religion in general causing wars, saying the Crusades is a good example; and they said religion poisons the mind with indoctrination that stops people thinking for themselves, and that it held science and technology back for hundreds and hundreds of years, because anyone who came up with any science that contradicted Christian dogma was persecuted, or in fact any science at all. Well, there might have been a bit of that; but probably nowhere near as much as they claimed.

"One of them even claimed that the Industrial Revolution would have started not long after the time of the ancient Greeks if it hadn't been for Christianity suppressing science, saying things like that the steam train would have been invented in about the year 400 AD, and the computer would have been invented about a thousand years ago, and things like that.

"That sounded a bit daft and unrealistic to me, as well as funny, and I had a bit of a laugh about it. It gave me the idea to make up jokes about this Goddess Athe I thought up. I said things like:

"'You're right about how computers and trains and things could have been invented over a thousand years ago if it hadn't been for Christians. I'll tell everyone how it would have happened: They would all have been invented by your Atheist goddess, Athe, wouldn't they.

"'Athe was actually a scientist-goddess, who cloned her followers from herself and a few of her first worshippers in a laboratory at the time of the ancient Greeks. She promised to invent electricity, television, telephones, computers and an Internet, and other hi-tech things that would bring people's living standards up to 21st century style in some respects, so her followers could have luxuries, and so the Great Doctrine of Atheism could be spread quickly. They were all looking forward to that.

"'But then one of her followers enraged her by becoming a Christian, and another one started worshiping Zeus. She was very angry at the possibility that once she'd invented all these hi-tech communication devices, they might be subverted into serving other purposes by former Atheists like those. She didn't want them used to promote god-belief, since she considered that that would be cruelly preying on the gullibility of the masses.

"She had already killed her father and other Greek gods she came into contact with so she could make her claim that there is no believable god. (She'd turned against the gods in vengeance and anger after they'd teased her mercilessly as a child.) One of her faults was that she did have very serious anger management problems. She planned to kill the rest of the gods so there would truly be no god. Of course, goddEsses were excluded from that policy, but she hoped that people would assume that if there was no god, it meant there were no goddesses either, so the no-religion doctrine could be preached by atheists with a clear conscience. Many Atheists have been fooled by this ever since, and somehow assume there aren't any goddesses, even though they worship her.

"'Athe did kill all the other Greek gods, and that's why they're not worshipped today.

"'After she did that, she ordered her followers to proclaim to all subsequent generations that religion's the cause of all war - the logic being that if the gods hadn't been religious, - in other words, if they hadn't been her fellow gods, then she wouldn't have been made to associate with them when she was young, so she wouldn't have been teased by them, so she would never have decided to kill them. So now the myth that religion is the cause of all war is part of Atheist folklore.

"'Don't deny you worship Athe, because I know all Atheists do. That's where they get their name, although I've heard she did instruct her followers to deny she exists. And she was originally a male god, but she had the ability to turn herself into a female and back again at will. Normally she stays female, so her followers like you can claim there are no gods without having to lie, because it doesn't mean there are no goddesses too.

"'Atheists call themselves Atheists after Athe because they idolise him/her and worship him/her as a god, as well as believing that there are no gods, and that god-belief is irrational. They somehow manage to do both, and try to convert other people to do both.

"'Anyway, after a couple of Athe's followers turned to other gods, before she killed the other Greek ones, She was so enraged that she refused to invent any of the hi-tech equipment she'd been going to invent after all, and decreed that mankind would just have to learn to invent it all themselves, even if it took a long time. She proclaimed that one day, her true followers, Atheists, would arise and invent all those things themselves.

"'It was a shame she didn't invent them herself really. If all her followers had stayed Atheist, 1st century people would've had a modern transport system, televisions, the Internet, and all kinds of other modern luxuries.'

"When I said all that, it seems one atheist on the forum thought I actually believed what I was saying, and said it was an interesting theory, but that I should be careful not to be taken in by myths.

"I joked, 'It's not a theory or a myth! The stuff about Athe is documented history! I wrote most of it myself! So it Must be true! Actually, I bet you know she exists really, but you're just denying she's real because she instructed her followers to do that, didn't she.

"'But it's good that she exists really, because it means that if any of the technology in your home goes wrong, she might be able to mend it for you, if she can target the homes of specific individuals remotely so she can. And if she can detect signals coming from people's homes, both electrical ones and thought waves, then maybe if you pray to her, she'll be willing to make sure all your technology works well, even though it's a couple of thousand years since she said she was going to invent it herself. Hopefully she hasn't forgotten how it works.'

"I was chatting to someone else on the forum, and said, 'Actually, there's the story of when Athe visited the Olympic Games at around the time when she was intending to invent modern technology, at around the time of Christ. She went there because she wanted to teach the Greeks that if they didn't worship gods, they might not feel an insane urge to try to imitate them in competing to the death like they did, so they could cancel the Olympics and would all be better off. Actually, I think she also went there after she'd killed the gods, trying to tell the Greeks they were making fools of themselves because gods don't exist, so trying to imitate them was foolish. But anyway, she forgot to transform herself into a male for that occasion, and when they saw her, since they had the death penalty for any female who watched their Olympic games in those days, they tried to kill her. Of course, being a god, she escaped, since her tormentors were only mortal, so she had superior powers to them, like being immortal.

"Only gods can kill gods, after they've turned them mortal. Or maybe after gods are killed, they're still alive, but they have to go and live in an underworld somewhere or something.

"'But ever since then, Athe has had an almighty grudge against Greeks because some of them tried to kill her; and even to this day, she can be heard insulting them. She's got prejudice problems as well as severe anger management issues.

"'I know you're not going to like this, but it seems she's prejudiced against men too, at least when she's in a bad mood. She sometimes used to say that men were a design flaw, a fault of evolution, proof that there's no Creator and no perfect God, because an intelligent and perfect creator could have designed things perfectly. But then she would go and relax, de-stress with a nice glass of wine, feel better, and change her mind.

"'When she said that kind of stuff, it was usually when she was annoyed after she'd had an argument with a man. She used to say that God would have made their minds more perfect so they wouldn't cause arguments like that if he existed.

"'Nowadays, men who don't believe in God can take inspiration from that. They can start arguments with people who do, and then claim that they've just disproven God, not because of their reasoning ability, but simply because they started the argument, proving that they're made imperfectly so they can't have been designed by a perfect God, because surely a perfect God wouldn't have wanted to make imperfect beings. ... Ah, but then there's always the story of how Adam and Eve started sinning not because God made them that way but after a talking snake deceived them in the Garden of Eden, isn't there; so maybe they can't use that argument after all.'"

One of the other girls grinned and said, "Talking of talking snakes, that's one thing some militant atheists who I myself have argued with on forums keep bringing up. In Revelation, it says it was really the devil, which might explain why it could talk. But they didn't think much of that argument. Eventually I felt like making a joke about it. I said,

"'Some atheists bring up the story in Genesis about the talking serpent so often, to try to ridicule Christianity for it, that I could get the impression that they think the whole Bible's All about talking snakes, because they bring it up way more than they bring up most other things in it. It's as if they think every book in the Bible must have something about talking snakes in its title, and that the reason most people don't know that is because the book names are given in short-hand in most Bibles. I suppose it could possibly be true. Maybe the real names of the books are things like these:

"'Maybe Genesis is really called, "The Genesis of the Talking Snake".
Then maybe Exodus is really called, "The Exodus of the Talking Snakes".
Then there's Leviticus, which is maybe really called, "Leviticus - Instructions for Priests on How to Look After Talking Snakes in the Manner to Which They Are Accustomed".
Then there's Numbers, which is maybe really called, "The Numbers of Talking Snakes in the Middle East".
After that there's Deuteronomy, which is maybe really called, "Deuteronomy - The Laws Talking Snakes Must Abide By".
The next book's Joshua. Maybe its real name is, "Joshua the Talking Snake Warrior".
Then there's Judges. Maybe that's really called, "The Judges of Talking Snakes".
The next book's Ruth, which might really be called, "Ruth the Famous Remarkable Caring Talking Snake". ... and so on.'"

The girls grinned.

Judith Talks About Some of the Nasty Things Going On in the World Nowadays, to Illustrate How Cruel Parts of Old Testament Societies Might have Been

But then Deborah turned the conversation serious again, by saying, "I don't blame atheists for mocking the Bible though, and thinking it's disgusting. I mean, just supposing it's true, I still think a good God could have thought of better ways to deal with humanity than destroying everyone!"

Judith replied, "The thing is though that it's easy to say all God's punishments are unfair from a cosy environment where we're not being affected; but if you lived in a lawless society, you might long for something dramatic to happen to stop people victimising you. I don't know; but just imagine if you were living in a country where you were affected by lots of the cruel things the Old Testament prophets said were going on a lot. You might be desperately calling on God to at least do something, hoping he existed after all."

Deborah said, "Yes, but that probably wouldn't include me being destroyed along with everyone else!"

Judith said, "Well no; but you might feel suicidal. I agree that killing everyone seems really harsh. But I don't feel as if I can really make a judgment, since I don't know what it would have been like to have lived in a community full of violence and cruelty, like the one the Bible says was destroyed. I've read horrible articles about what conditions are still like for a lot of people in the world today, and I've wondered if life was a bit like that but just worse for some people in Old Testament times. I'm not saying I think there are countries today that are just as lawless as some Old Testament societies seem to have been. I just don't know. And I'm not saying I think any country today deserves punishment from God. But I've read articles that bring home just how nasty it might have been for some people in Old Testament times.

"I've heard atheists say it's barbaric that the Old Testament says mediums had to be stoned to death. ... Actually, I think you said something like that yourself a few weeks ago, didn't you. Well, it would be barbaric today, in this country. But there are places where a lot of people like that are more sinister. Actually, I think I said a bit about this the other week too, didn't I. I'll tell you what I know in more detail though:

"In some parts of the world, some people who claim to have supernatural powers, or who want help from the supernatural, can do really horrible things, like chop children's hands off or even kill them, because they believe their vitality will be transferred to them in some way if they've got their body parts, or that having them will generate some kind of supernatural power that'll help them in some way, like helping them in business, or helping their party win elections even. I read that the number of those kinds of murders increases at election times. I don't know what percentage of the people in those countries believes that that kind of thing works. Maybe most people don't, and really hate having the people who do that around, or they believe mutilating people can help, but hate the people who actually do it, because they're scared about their children's safety.

"But there are even crime syndicates that order killings of children and other people so they can sell their body parts to witchdoctors who can sell them to people who believe they'll bring them good luck in some way, like by increasing the profits of their businesses.

"I think most witchdoctors and traditional healer-type people in the countries where that goes on don't do things like that. I think it's just a small minority.

"But the thing is that it's easy to just assume that Old Testament societies and communities in other parts of the world had or have pretty much the same values as us; but it might not be true. I mean, chances are that most people have always been caring towards everyone in need. But who can really be sure what percentage really were or are, especially in societies where there are common beliefs like that certain disabilities are a curse from God, or things like that? I just recently heard that in at least one developing country, it's commonly believed that parents who have a child with downs syndrome must have gone to a witchdoctor before they were born and sacrificed the well-being of their child in return for the granting of good fortune like increased wealth. So some people can be unkind to families with children with the disorder because of that, and even to the children themselves. It seems there isn't enough good education in those countries for everyone to know the real causes of things like downs syndrome.

"I'm not saying being unkind to families where there's a child with a disability would be a reason for God to punish those countries, or anything like that; I'm just saying it's an illustration of how different some things can be in some parts of the world.

"Even some human sacrifice goes on in some countries today, with some fraudsters assuring people it'll bring them good fortune, or help them overcome problems in their lives. Superstition is really rife in some countries, so it's easy to find people to fool into believing it'll help. And some people even believe it's best to cut children's body parts off while they're alive because their screams will make the magic charms they make from them more powerful.

"And there are witchdoctors who force girls into prostitution, performing ceremonies where they take locks of their hair and things, and tell them they have the power to use them to put a curse on them that'll make them die if they manage to escape their pimps.

"And in some parts of the world, Pagan gods are still worshipped, and some people still think they'll be pleased by human sacrifice, so some things police forces have to deal with are crimes where people have thought it would be good to kill people to please their gods to improve their chances of success in life. There was a report in a Nigerian newspaper recently about a region of the country where some people worshipped a certain war god, and the more humans they managed to sacrifice to it, the more they were admired by the rest of the worshippers. I think the police cracked down on them in the end though. Hopefully they're all in prison now where they can't carry on doing that!

"Apparently, some witchdoctors and people like them in India and Africa and some other places trick people into believing they really do have supernatural powers by doing things that a lot of scientists would be able to detect as fraud, like pretending they can produce objects out of thin air, when they're really hiding them up their sleeve and getting them out quickly when they've distracted the people who are watching so they aren't looking. So people think they must have special knowledge. So they believe them when some of them order them to do harmful things.

"Maybe one day, that kind of thing just won't happen anywhere, because everyone will be educated enough to stop believing in that kind of thing, and to have more ideas about how they can solve their problems and get to be successful in life. But it'll probably take more than education, since I suspect that people are more likely to resort to harming other people in the hope of getting supernatural help when they're really in need of something; so things like good health services might cut down that kind of crime too, where people can easily get treated by professionals, instead of having to try to get supernatural help.

"But human sacrifice isn't just done when people need help. I read that in some places, it's done to induce the gods to unleash sickness on enemies, and when a new ruler comes to power, to bless his reign, and things like that.

"I think it's a lot less common than it used to be, but it still goes on in some places.

"And the temple prostitution that was done in the worship of some gods in Old Testament times might not have been as glamourous as it might sound to some people. Ritual prostitution still goes on in some parts of India, despite attempts to outlaw it. Girls who aren't even teenagers yet can be given to priests by poor parents who are finding it hard to care for all their children, and their virginity can be auctioned off to people, some of whom will have sexually transmitted diseases and believe a myth that having sex with a virgin will get rid of them. And the young prostitutes get to do things like attend wedding parties to sing and dance for the people there, but it's because people believe any evil spirits around will cling to them, sparing the guests.

"And once a girl's been a prostitute, it's unlikely she'll be chosen to marry a man who wants to be respectable. It seems a lot of them resort to going to the cities where they hope to make more money from prostitution; but then they're at risk of getting infected with diseases like AIDS, from more widely-travelled men, or men in areas where Aids is more common.

"Like I said though, I'm not saying I think the majority of people in the society where those things happen probably approve of that kind of thing. That stuff just illustrates what things can be like in some places.

"And I've read news articles about other really horrible things going on nowadays, including, in a part of Africa where there's been a war going on for ages, rape and torture and killing, even of children, and cannibalism, including where people have been forced to eat family members by attackers. And it seems that some of the cannibalism where the attackers themselves have eaten people has been meant to transfer power from the victims to the perpetrators in a magical way, since they believe that works.

"All kinds of gruesome things are going on in some countries today, including so-called 'honour' killings in Pakistan and other places, where women can be killed horribly for even doing things you'd sympathise with them for doing in this country, like divorcing abusive husbands. Apparently refusing to submit to male authority is often thought to bring shame on the family in places like that, and makes women who do that considered to be even worthy of death in some cultures, where women can even be murdered by family members for being raped, for some kind of warped reason I can't remember now! And in India, thousands and thousands of baby girls are murdered because families don't want girls, because it's thought that when they grow up, they'll be a financial burden on the family, because when they get married, they'll be expected to have a dowry they can bring to the marriage. Something like that."

The Girls Crave Some Light Relief, and Some Humour Breaks Out Again

One of the girls said, "This is horrendous! I think you ought to stop talking about it now, or I'm going to be sick! Do you make a habit of reading gory news articles like that? Why would you do it? I find it depressing enough to read the ordinary news!"

Judith replied, "Well, I don't normally make a habit of reading news articles about this kind of thing. But I did actually look for articles about horrible things people do nowadays in the worship of other gods and other things like that after I read Old Testament passages about how much God condemned those things, and wondered if anything like human sacrifice in the worship of other gods still goes on today."

One of the group said sarcastically, "Charming! I'll know who to come to if I fancy a bit of bedtime reading!"

Judith said, "Come on, I'm not always talking about horrible stuff, am I! I'm just giving examples to illustrate that we just don't know how nasty things might have been in biblical times, and how nasty things still are in some places, away from this cosy place."

Sandra asked Judith, "Do you think it's possible that some countries are being punished by God today?"

Judith said, "I've got no idea. The Bible does say it wasn't just the people of Israel who were punished by war. But one Old Testament passage does say that before countries are punished, prophets will come and warn them that they need to change their ways if they don't want their country to be punished, to try to avert the punishment. So if a war breaks out but nothing like that's happened, maybe it means people can be sure it's not a punishment from God, but just to do with psychopathic leaders or something, - although if some people go around claiming there's going to be a war and it's God's punishment, and then a war does break out, obviously that doesn't mean they're genuine prophets and that the war really is a punishment from God."

Tracy said for a bit of comparatively light relief, "Imagine if relations between America and Russia or China got really bad, and weather forecasters became like prophets, saying things like, 'We predict that the coming winter will be a nuclear winter, which means it'll be especially harsh; and we forecast that it'll go on for at least twenty years. This is because nuclear war may be about to break out if leaders don't change their ways, and ash in the atmosphere from all the burning cities will block out the sun for a long time.'

"Imagine if someone just wanted to check the weather forecast to see how sunny it was going to be that day, and they read that! That would be depressing!"

One of the girls grinned and said, "Probably only a little bit more depressing than this conversation though!"

One of the group said, "Yeah. Let's talk about something else for a while, or I might be sick too!"

Helen said, "Yeah! This stuff's horrible! I need to go and get a drink! And I mean an alcoholic one, to comfort myself!"

Sandra said, "So do I! It's no wonder if some people like to get drunk a lot, if they actually have to live in those conditions!"

Tracy said, "That's a point, although I think a lot of people who like getting drunk are just sensation-seekers or something. But I think I need an alcoholic drink too!"

Most of the others said they felt the need for one as well. Judith said, "Actually, I could do with one too. Or two, or three! I don't like talking about this stuff!"

The girls laughed, and one said, "Hey imagine if you'd been talking about something so depressing it made you want to drink and drink, and then you were teaching about how the Bible says Christians shouldn't get drunk, and you were insisting it was important, but all the while you were slurring your words and wobbling around, and then you passed out drunk!"

Another girl said, "That reminds me of a joke, about a soldier in the American Civil War, who said he'd made it his mission to preach about the evils of drink, declaring his intention to never again touch a drop. Every night, some men thought it would be fun to entice him to drink, so they could show him up as a hypocrite. They would always buy him drinks. Every night he would get drunk, and then every morning, he would say he deeply regretted it, and vow to stay sober for the rest of his life again. This went on for some time. Then one day, someone asked this man, 'Why do you keep preaching about the evils of drink? It just makes people want to buy you drinks so you'll be enticed to drink them, so they can say you're a hypocrite, or think it's funny that they've made you break your vow of sobriety.' And the man said, 'Well if I stopped preaching about the evils of drinking, they'd stop doing it, and then I'd have to buy my own drinks!'"

Another one of the group said, "I don't know if that's based on a true story, but I heard about something like that that happened in real life. A man said he'd just started university, when he met a fellow student who declared to everyone around that he intended to study for the priesthood in a couple of years' time, and then he'd be a priest and be celibate for the rest of his life; but he said that before that happened, he'd like to try out the things of the world, like sex and drink and drugs, so he'd understand the problems of his parishioners better when they came to him with dilemmas about those things.

"Several of the girls felt sorry for him, thinking it would be a tough sacrifice for him to be celibate for the rest of his life, so they were eager to grant his wishes and show him a good time while he was still trying out the things of the world. And some people bought him drinks and drugs, which he enjoyed. So he spent a lot of the time getting high and having sex.

"Then one day, the man I mentioned at the beginning of this story managed to peel this other man away from his pleasures for long enough to ask him when he was intending to start studying for the priesthood. The man who'd been living the high life looked at him as if he was stupid, and told him he'd given up the idea of being a priest ages ago!

"I don't know if he never really intended to be a priest, but just said what he'd said in the beginning in the hope that people would think it would be nice to help him have fun for a while, or whether he did originally mean what he said, - or else managed to kid himself into believing he did, because he wanted to believe he had a good reason to have fun, - but changed his mind when he began to enjoy himself."

After that story, they all went to get drinks. Becky couldn't comfort herself with alcohol, since she was too young, but she comforted herself with food instead.

A Conversation Starts About Evolution, Which Soon Turns Humorous

While they were eating and drinking, Deborah joked, "Do you really believe God created the world, Judith? I think it's time your beliefs mellowed with age! Maybe if you could take an ageing potion that would age you ten years on the spot, you'd find you suddenly didn't believe in Christianity as strongly as you do now, or at least in parts of it."

Judith joked in reply, "Yeah, and maybe I'd suddenly discover I had a couple of kids, and I wouldn't be able to remember where on earth they came from! That would be confusing! I think I'd prefer to age naturally. Whether my beliefs will change over time or not, who knows! But I'm pretty confident in them at the moment."

Deborah replied, "Maybe if you had a science qualification, you'd be more likely to believe in evolution. There's a lot of evidence for it, you know."

Judith said, "Well, since I haven't got one, I can't be sure everything I've read about the subject is accurate; but actually, Christians have different points of view about evolution, and some make a distinction between microevolution and macroevolution, saying microevolution happens all the time, and it's where changes do happen within species, but instead of growing more complex, so in enough time you might get evolution from amoebas to humans with our really sophisticated brains, which would be macroevolution, organisms grow more distinct from each other over time, as some information that was in their genetic codes originally is lost after a while, because some of the species turn out to survive better without it, so the animals in it that are born without it survive for longer and are more likely to grow to have babies of their own.

"I read that that happened with a species of beetles, where some on a windy island had a genetic mutation that had scrambled or lost the ability of the beetles that were born with it to make wings, so they didn't have wings like the ones on the mainland near the island did; and it could be said that they'd evolved to not have wings; but it was because beetles without wings would be more likely to survive on the island, because ones with wings would be more likely to be blown into the sea where they ended up drowning, because the wind would be far more likely to blow beetles in the air into the sea; so the beetles that were always on the ground would be more likely to live to breed and pass their wingless genetic variant onto their offspring.

"So the ones that ended up surviving on the island were the wingless ones, while the beetles on the mainland were more able to survive if they had wings, since there were predators there that would eat the ones they found on the ground, so all the wingless beetles there would likely have been eaten before they could breed, so the ones that did breed and pass on their genetic information would be the ones with wings.

"Maybe you'd call that evolution. But I don't suppose there are many Christians who'd deny that that kind of evolution happens. It's just that a lot of Christians find it hard to believe that humans could have evolved from microscopic single-celled organisms, instead of being created by God."

Deborah said, "Species can get more complex over time though. In fact, it's been found that a lot of single-celled organisms already have the genes that help them function in different ways when they evolve into multi-celled organisms; and then species can evolve more and more different kinds of genes over time as genes mutate or rearrange to form new ones that function in new ways. Scientists have seen it happen."

The conversation might have carried on; but one of the other girls turned it humorous by saying, "I used to post on this forum where there was a whole lot of conflict, but some of it was fun. Like there was some joker who started this thread in the science subforum for a laugh, pretending to have disproved evolution, and a few people took it seriously and criticised him for it. I don't know why, since it was an obvious joke, because it said things like that Darwin claimed that everything, - absolutely everything, evolved from Flora and Fiona, (instead of flora and fauna); and he said that since that made two things, it would have been impossible, since it would have to have meant the concept of numbers would have evolved from Flora and Fiona too, which it obviously can't have done if it was already there, which it would have to have been, since if Flora and Fiona had both existed, it would have meant there were two of them. So Darwin's theory would have to be saying that something existed before it did. So it obviously couldn't be true.

"Someone accused this man of talking rubbish. The man thanked him for being kind enough to bestow his intelligence on someone as unintelligent as him, but asked him to leave the thread, since it was dangerously creaking and showing strains under the weight of such an intellect. For some reason, he called the man who'd said his theory was rubbish Mr Scrooge; and when the man objected to being insulted, he said, 'Oh, I wasn’t attempting to call you names, my dear Scrooge.'

"Someone else said that if the man really wanted to disprove evolution, he ought to publish his theories not on a forum but in a respected peer-reviewed science journal; but he said he could expect some tough challenges to them!

"I joked, 'My favourite peer-reviewed science journals for this kind of thing are Woman's Weekly and The News of the World. Both are outstanding journals with reputations for scientific excellence going back hundreds of years!'"

"Then another man started an argument with me, saying I'd been talking rubbish ever since I'd joined another forum he was on a few years earlier.

"I joked, 'Oh yes, I remember that time. It was the end of December 2004 when I joined that forum. That was ages ago, when evolution was still in its infancy, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, and there were fish with feathers and frogs with wings. There was a sense of optimism in the air. Scientists believed that many new and exciting things would happen in the future, like birds evolving so they could build nests on their own, so they didn't keep flying into people's houses and taking up residence in their favourite chairs till those people went out and built them nests so they could persuade them to leave, and all slugs evolving pretty shells so they looked nicer, and adapting to eat weeds instead of everyone's favourite plants. It was a primitive time. God hadn't even decided what to create on the last day yet.

"'It was an interesting time. The earth was still a molten mass, and people got around on stepping stones. Lots of inspectors were employed to make sure the stepping stones didn't get slippery, to prevent people and animals falling into the molten mass below. God sat on guard above, to make sure the inspectors were doing their jobs properly. He had to sack some, for just sitting around talking instead of inspecting stepping stones. But eventually, he found stepping stone zealots, who were so fanatical about inspecting stepping stones that they did hours of unpaid overtime every day. 2004 was a time of chaos and flux in the world, an interesting time, but one in which people had to be bold and arrogant to survive! ... Or am I just drifting off into fantasy land here? ... Oh yeah. Sorry.'

"One man asked he whether I believed evolution or creation happened. I said, 'I've got absolutely no idea. You see, it all happened Just before I was born, so I wasn't there to see just what went on.'

"The man who'd started the thread about how scientists believe evolution was caused by Flora and Fiona joked that he'd heard that me and another man on the forum who I really didn't like were getting married. Just for fun, I joked,

"'Actually, I'd like to do a world-shaking scientific experiment on him. Far from marrying him, I'd like to plant him in the earth by the side of a road, to see if under the right conditions, where organisms have to adapt to their circumstances by evolving or they die, evolution goes backwards, and people can de-evolve into plants. We'll give him lots of water and dig lots of compost around him so he has lots of food. Then we'll monitor him every day, to see if he's showing any signs of turning into a plant. It'll be interesting to see how long it takes.

"'I suppose a problem could be that if we put him by the side of a road, people might ruin the experiment by feeding him human food. People might take pity on him and give him half-eaten McDonalds burgers, or bread they intended for the ducks in the park, or things like that. Then his body wouldn't have to make the effort to adapt to his new conditions, so he wouldn't turn into a plant. We'll have to find somewhere quiet to put him. If he does turn into a plant, we'll report our exciting new breakthrough in the understanding of evolution to the best scientific journals.'

"There was a troll-type person on the forum who told me to 'eat shit since I talk it already', and I replied, 'Hey, one or two people here seem to be halfway towards evolving into plants already. I can't wait for the next evolutionary leap. It might mean that instead of spewing an uncouth reference to manure, he'll actually be using the stuff to grow nice and healthy.'"

The girls smiled, and one of them said, "I was on a forum where some of us had a laugh about the idea of evolution as well! I remember saying,

"'I've realised there's some impressive evidence for evolution: There used to be an American band called the Eagles, didn't there. I think they were quite popular, and they sang proper human words, and played the guitar, and that kind of thing. Well, if there are eagles that can do that, that proves some eagles have evolved a long way, because most eagles can't do that kind of thing.

"'Actually, there was even a band called Hall and Oates, wasn't there? Wow! If even oats can evolve so they can play in a band, evolution must do spectacular things sometimes! I wonder how long it took those oats to evolve to be able to play in a band. Millions of years, I suppose. It would be interesting to hear their early recordings when they were just beginning to play music, perhaps in a horse's stable or in the ground still growing. But maybe that was before tape recorders evolved so there aren't any.

"'And aren't there two factions in American politics called the hawks and the doves? The hawks want war, and the doves don't? I think it's amazing that some birds could have evolved to be so sophisticated they can run American politics! They must have evolved to be able to talk, and make really important decisions, and all kinds of things. I don't understand why humans would let birds run the country though. It must be something to do with the equal opportunities policies they've got nowadays.

"'And I heard that a chimpanzee fell in love with the hawk Ronald Reagan, who was the American president for years in the 1980s. Perhaps he was a hawk in the process of evolving into a chimpanzee. Or maybe they were both cross-breeds really.

"'What an interesting world we live in! I hope this stuff's in the textbooks.'

"Then one day on the forum, we were having a more serious conversation about evolution, and I was asking people how it happened, saying I'd read some articles by people called creationists who didn't believe it happened, but thought God created everything. I mentioned what they said, and asked what people thought about it. One bad-tempered man explained a bit about the theory of evolution, and when I didn't contradict him or anything, he said to some other people in the conversation, 'You'll notice she's never once refuted my arguments. When one of her wonderful little Creationist arguments is torn apart, she just moves on to the next inane argument. Classic.'

"I replied, 'It doesn't occur to you that I might actually be taking on board what you say then, so I don't feel the need to refute it? I wonder if there are school teachers like you, who say things like, "Jimmy! I told you that in 1812, Napoleon's troops were defeated in Russia mainly by the freezing winter! I notice you haven't tried to contradict me, but you've just accepted what I said! How come you haven't accused me of being wrong? I'll have to send you to the headmaster's office if this display of open insolence continues! You're being a very naughty boy!'"

The girls grinned.

Then one said, "It's funny! I've had some humorous conversations about evolution on a forum too! Someone was talking about how a species can eventually evolve into a new one that can't breed with the species they used to be. I said,

"'So do you think that if the people of one country were completely cut off from the rest of the world for thousands of years, say if a big wall was built around the country and a roof of bars was put on top of it so no one could get out or in, but sunlight and rain could get in so they wouldn't all die, They'd eventually change till they couldn't breed with anyone else in the world?'

"Someone said that would only happen if the environment changed in a serious way so the people most likely to survive would be people who had genes that were best adapted to the changes, and then since they'd be the ones most likely to survive to pass them on, eventually, as more and more generations were born, a higher and higher percentage of the population would have those genes, till everyone was born with them.

"But he said that even in a very different environment, the changes would be most likely to be ones that didn't mean the people there couldn't breed with other people, such as the ones already seen in humans who live in very different climates, like different skin colour. But he said there could also be changes in physical build, since people in much colder environments might evolve shorter limbs, since it takes more energy to keep body parts warm when they're further away from the heart.

"I joked, 'Wow! Really? All this could lead to a very exciting experiment! So if we built a wall around a country and put a roof on it, and blasted a continuous stream of cold air through the bars of the roof so it became freezing cold all around it, and then we checked on the people every 100 years or so, or maybe left them for a bit longer and then checked on them, perhaps we'd find that all kinds of interesting things eventually happened to them!

"'They might all have really short limbs in the end, and perhaps inverted noses to keep them warm, or noses that popped out when they needed to blow them and then scrunched themselves back in, and maybe very short fingers. Perhaps they'd have evolved the ability to draw their arms into their bodies at will to keep them warm. Maybe they'd evolve buttons on themselves that they could just press, and then their stubby little arms would zoom inside their bodies. The trouble is, how would they get them out again? Perhaps the buttons would be toggle buttons, and would be within reach of their chins.

"'Maybe they would have a special mechanism to protect their toes as well, so maybe if they pressed their toes down on the ground or something, it would set off a signal that would yank them right into their feet to keep them warm. They'd have to evolve ways of walking without toes comfortably though. And it would mean that if they pressed their toes on the ground for some other reason without thinking, their toes would zoom into their feet when they didn't want them to, and it would probably overbalance them because they wouldn't be expecting it. So they might fall on the floor regularly all over the place. Maybe they'd evolve very strong bones and skin as hard as concrete, so whenever they fell over, they'd be uninjured. The trouble is that skin as hard as concrete wouldn't be flexible, so it would restrict their movements a lot. I wonder how they'd evolve to get around that! Wouldn't it be interesting to observe all that!

"'Just imagine if all the people in the country started developing the concrete skin-type while they were still children, because of a genetic mutation, which although it enabled even little children to be protected when they fell on the floor when they pressed their toes on the ground too hard accidentally when they didn't mean to set off the toe-yanking-in mechanism, it stopped them growing! Maybe all the people would end up extremely small, because their concrete skin wouldn't stretch or grow.'"

One of the other girls smiled and said, "You troll! Was that man trying to be serious when you were just joking around? Mind you, oddly enough, I've had a bit of a joke about evolution on a forum as well! Someone asked me if I believe in evolution. He said that 75 % of people in America either don't believe in it, or either think God played a part in it, or think they don't know enough about it to be sure. Then the next day, I heard him telling someone the figure was 85 %. I joked, 'Wow, the figure's gone up 10 % in only a day? Who are these masterful people who convince so many people so quickly that evolution didn't happen, or might not have happened?'

"He said he'd made a mistake before when he'd said it was 75 %. But then he said the statistics change quite a bit from opinion poll to opinion poll, although in all of them he's seen, the people who believe in evolution that happened naturally with no God involved are still only a small minority.

"I thought that was quite surprising. I mean, I thought most people believe in natural evolution. It seems things are different in America. I'd have thought the vast majority of people in this country would believe in it, although I can't be sure, since I've never seen any opinion polls of people here.

"Anyway, when this man asked me if I believe in evolution, I said, 'I don't think I'm in a position to judge whether it happened or not. I mean, I haven't got a clue what happened all those years ago, since I wasn't there when life began on earth, - or if I was, and I'm somehow millions of years older than I think I am, and was somehow once a single-celled slimy organism that evolved into me the way I am now, and my parents have been lying to me all my life by saying my mum gave birth to me, when they perhaps found me as a baby near-human, busily evolving on the streets or something, and took me in out of pity, I can't remember it. So I haven't got much of an opinion about it really, although it would seem weird to me if something as sophisticated as us could have developed purely on our own. ... Well, when you think of some people, like people who start wars and like violence, it's easier to imagine it. But it's hard when you think about people who've got real brain power.

"'... Actually it's funny: it seems Some of the people with real brain power can't imagine their brains could have been invented by a higher being, so they think they must have come about over time by natural means.

"'Well, not their own brains, I don't suppose, but human brains in general, obviously, since if they believed their own brains were millions of years old and evolved, they'd have to somehow believe their own brains used to belong to other people, and instead of decomposing when those people died, they were taken out and shoved into other people's heads, and then put into other ones when those people died, and on and on like that, throughout millions of years, like if there were secret labs in hospitals where babies were taken, where any kind of semblance of a brain they had was replaced with a brain the people in the labs knew was a good one, - although I don't know how they'd have fitted it in a baby's head. Maybe they'd have to have replaced their heads as well, so there were some tiny babies lying around with adult-sized heads. Imagine the friends of the people with those babies just longing to comment on the fact that their babies' heads were unnaturally massive, but thinking they'd better be polite and stay quiet!

"'Mind you, I don't know how babies like that could actually grow up properly, since it would take such a massive amount of muscle power to lift a head up that was so big, I'd be surprised if they could manage it, although maybe they'd just develop really massive neck muscles so they could. ... If you ever meet someone who seems to have really big muscles in their neck, you'll know that maybe they had their heads replaced with other ones when they were babies.'

"Anyway, this man replied, 'evolution happened as surely as the sun rises.'

"I joked, 'Hang on, I thought the sun doesn't really rise and set, but it just looks that way because the earth rotates round it, and different bits of it get into positions where it starts shining on them or something. So are you saying evolution didn't really happen, just as the sun doesn't really rise and set?

"'Or am I wrong, and does the sun actually rise and fall, just like an aeroplane taking off and coming to land somewhere else? Actually, I personally doubt it rises and sets every day. I think it gets a bit lazy in the winter. Perhaps it hibernates, much like some animals. If only someone could reprogram it not to! It would make people feel more cheerful if it came out more often. Perhaps if it shone more brightly, it would warm and brighten itself up sufficiently that it didn't feel the need to hibernate in the winter, so we wouldn't have these problems. Does anyone have any ideas on how we could warm up the sun to see if that works?'"

Becky said, "I hope that man didn't just think you were being a troll! Actually, I had a bit of a laugh on a forum myself about that kind of topic though. Someone started a thread meant to make fun of the arguments of people who don't believe in evolution. I joked, 'Actually, I don't understand why anyone wouldn't believe in evolution, since I personally know that when creationists start believing that at least some kinds of evolution must happen, because they find out that some species can change quickly, like bacteria, when they evolve to be drug-resistant, their brain waves transmit themselves into their DNA, and become such an integral part of it that the future offspring of the creationists themselves change quickly.'

"Then I joked, "'I don't believe in evolution myself though. But I think creationism must be wrong as well as evolution, because if God went to all the trouble of creating the world, he'd make very sure everyone knew he'd done it! He'd obviously graffiti his signature onto all his best creations, or make them tell of his existence in other ways.

"'So all the mountains with the best views would have the word "God" carved into them. The waves of all the best seas would clearly make a noise that sounded like the word "God" as they crashed against the shore. Lions would roar the word "God" as they prowled the jungle. The best fruits falling from the trees would plop onto the ground with a noise that sounded like the word "God". Birds would sing in languages humans could understand, all about God. Dogs wouldn't go "Woof"; they'd bark "God". All mammals would be born with birth marks in prominent places in the shape of the word "God". When diamond miners had sorted the diamonds from the dross, the diamonds would spontaneously start making a noise that sounded as if a hymn of praise to God had broken out. All vegetables would be imprinted with the word "God", that would instantly disappear the moment the vegetables began to turn rotten. And so on.

"'And as well as that, if God had been really keen on getting converts, like the Bible says he is, he would have made his name sound more attractive! I mean, the name "God" doesn't sound all that attractive. So he could have made sure he was called something that would bring to mind nice things, like Godflower, or Godsweet, or Godsugar, or Godcake. Or if he wanted to make it sound as if it would be healthy to follow him, he could have made sure something healthy got incorporated into his name; so he could have made sure he got called Godcarrot, or Godblueberry, or Godspinach, or Godgarlic or something.'"

The others giggled.

Then one of the group joked, "I wonder if God's a product of evolution, so maybe once he was just like an amoeba, and then over millions of years he evolved to become like a human being, and then he evolved to be God of the Israelites, and then he evolved so he could be God of the whole world.

"I remember I heard some thunder coming from outside not long ago, - well, it would have been a shock if it had come from inside my room! But I thought, 'That sounds a bit like a wild animal growling. What if it's God, and he's de-evolving - or whatever it's called when evolution goes backwards'!

"I've never thought thunder sounded like an animal growling before. I don't know why the thought popped into my head just then.

"But imagine getting to heaven, and instead of God being there, there was a big dog-like thing running around barking, and you were told it's God, who's de-evolved into a dog that just likes being given dog treats and running around and playing with balls and being taken for walks, and can't do any God-like things any more, so heaven has to be run by the angels! And imagine if you were told that when he's really angry, like he gets when there's lightning, because he hates it, he growls really loudly, and that's what really causes the noise thunder makes."

Deborah grinned and said, "Somehow that doesn't seem very worshipful. I always thought Christians were supposed to worship God, not make fun of him!"

The girl who'd made the joke smiled and blushed and said, "Maybe you're right."